3-gun Tactical Class

[xsrdx]

Competing in USPSA competition will help me perform better at my day job

My point was simply that I prefer your rules to USPSA 3 Gun rules. Certainly any competition is going to improve performance at some level.

Your rules, and others that allow otherwise limited shooters to run optics on the rifle, are more appropriate for folks that for whatever reason,  may wish to utilize as issued, or similar, gear.

[AH6IP]

Funny thing about "being tactical".  Equipment changes on a daily basis, both military and LEO(their R+D guys are always on the hunt).  Limiting competitors to "battle worthy" sights is bull.  Let em shoot what they got(its a sport, remember) and if it fails, shame on 'em.  Simplicity and the ability for modifications are the key.  I am a guy who has shot litterally millions of rounds through simple, proven equipment.  bottom line-dont fix what aint broke.  But, with all those rnds, still can't shoot 3gun worth a crap, but my mentor(Kyle) spurs me on.

[KyleL]

And when he says over a MILLION he means it.

Is a minigun considered legal for three gun. It definately makes major. But a grease pencil mark on the windscreen might be pushing it a little, kind of Gamey. Guess that would put you in open with all the fast movers. Lucky for you they haven't hit a target lately.... LOL Take it easy JL

ADIOS KyleL

[AH6IP]

I aint ever used a grease mark on my windscreen(never could see it under the NOD's), so I should still be Limited, no Production, no L10(000,000)-yea thats it!

[Patrick Sweeney]

If we're going to be tactical, why be partial about it?  How about this as a division:

Rifle:  16" or 20" bbl, durable and combat-suitable optics, no comps, no dual sights (except iron backups to optics) no tube forearms, no bipods, must have sling, and sling must be double-attached, loops and duct tape.

Handgun:  suitable caliber (no prob) iron sights, durable and secure holster (no speed rigs) no open-top friction retention unless they can hold three times the pistols loaded wieght.  mags in secure carriers.

Shotgun:  no porting, no optics, no extended tubes beyond ten shots, no speed loaders.

A start?

[kellyn]

Patrick, I applaud your bravery to hoist up a set of rules for everyone else to shoot at.  I like youor start but I am going to shoot anyway!

Rifles:  what's wrong with tube handguards?  Scott Medesha makes one that is probably the most tactical and adaptive that I've ever seen.  I've even seen Kyle with a tubular handguard (check out the photos on http://www.vikingtactics.com)!  What about comps?  Surely a comp is better than nothing at all.  Nothing at all leads to huge fireballs out the end of the barrel particularly on a 16 in gun.  I can appreciate requiring a Vortex flashhider to be truly tactical but that is not an option for postban guns.    I agree about slings (yes) and bipods (no).  

Pistols:  I kind of like your rules but from what I hear from the real world, major really does beat minor.  But I can fully appreciate Kyle's position that he does not want to have to chrono.  To make match directors' lives  easier, I would be willing to give this up.

Shotguns:  I think a max of 8 rounds is a good rule or even five.  A ten rounder is pretty big.  Other than that I agree.  I don't care for barrel length requirements.  Course design can solve that issue and it turns new some new shooters away.

L10(000,000).  now that's funny!  

[Patrick Sweeney]

Kelly,

Tube handguards on a rifle, show me where it's an issue item.  Ditto comps.  I sure as heck don't want to be doing room entry with someone on the team running a JP.  Or McArthur.

I'd love to keep Major/Minor, but the hassles can be a real problem for match directors.

Shotgun, eight shots, sure.

All equipment problems can be solved or forced in the "correct" direction with stage design.  Hate 30" barrels on a shotgun?  Make the sgn stages all hallway horrors.  What we want is equipment reasonably good for every situation.

[kurtm]

Hey Patrick:

Since you asked tube hand guards, although hiden under stock looking hand guards, ARE "issue" items in All the Markman ship units in the military. Yes, no comps.

As for major/minor, befor the competitor clears out on the pistol stage, have him run a few over a chrono. This takes very little extra time, an it can be planed for. It has worked for us befor with up to 150 shooters.

As for shotguns, make a length rule that is no longer than say an M1A and let them hold what it holds DON'T limit rounds. Those are my few meager ideas on the subject.                                       KURT

[Patrick Sweeney]

Lets focus on Tactical Rifle, shall we?  In the interests of keeping to our roots, lets start by agreeing that Tactical should more closely reflect real-world considerations than Open can.

Comps:  No.  Unless a particular design can prove it does not increase flash over what a standard birdcage does.  This means bare-muzzle AR's will flash, but have to be allowed.  (The Law, not the Tactical rule.)  The first time I saw an AK-74 fired at night, I was glad they had them and we did not.  It was like a flashbulb going off.  Comps increase flash, a definite no-no in the real world.

Scopes:  Compact and durable.  Do we limit by size and weight?  By an approved list?  Do we test by dropping?  My temptation is to wimp out and allow anything smaller than a Leupold 1.75-6X.

Dual scopes:  Again, I'd wimp and limit size.  Say, the envelope of an Aimpoint?

Bipods:  I'd say no, simply because they are too bulky, and I sure wouldn't want to do a long range patrol with one bolted on the gun.

Tubes:  Fine, OK, I'll allow them.

No cheekpieces, ambi stuff (except for southpaws, just to be fair) dual mags.

Spare magazines in Tactical must be secured in flapped and latched (velcro will do) mag carriers.  Anyone who wants to use an open-topped rig must prove it can hold a mag to ten times its loaded weight upside down.  Adjustable tension devices must be locked or painted, and subject to test at any time.

Comments?

[KyleL]

Tube handgaurds are issued not only to Marksmanship units but other soldiers and sailors as well. If you want to use your sling it is a neccessity.

Open top mag pouches are being used, as well as Bladetech Holsters.

If a locking device is there it must be used. Otherwise if he loses the weapon out of the holster DQ.

Shotgun 22 inch limit or no more than 9 rounds total. We allow as long as you want as long as you don't mind using that 26 incher inside a Mazda Miata.

Our stages require you to shoot from Real Props. This eliminates alot of gaming.

Alot of running, crawling, crying, this will help out the equip rules.

Sling a must, (of course a Viking Tactics sling) most of our stages require you to use more than one weapon. If you transition to your sidearm from Rifle you must carry it with you. Some of you won't agree with this but that is more tactical than grounding the blaster. Is it unsafe, yes if you don't have good ROs. NC Tactical has the best ROs in the world, actually in the universe as far as we know..

Just my opinion... Well actually just the rules for my match. Change what you want just check our site before you show up, our rules will remain relatively unchanged.

KyleL

[kurtm]

KYLE:

This all sounds great except for the shotgun. A 22" rule should do it, why the round limit on top of that? Yes a Benelli in that length trim holds 10-11 with 2 3/4" shells. how about instead of a round limit on the shotgun its self, limit some of the zany shell carriers we see such as the 10 round forearm carriers, or the "shell corsette" that hold a days dove hunting ammo, shell suspenders fall into this catagory also. (wow that took quite a turn), Length or rounds BUT NOT BOTH!!!

GROUND A BLASTER??? Only if I happen to be laying down!! There is nothing inherently UNSAFE about reholstering a HOT weapon or slinging one. This is an argument from U.S.P.S.A that simple does not fly. I have shot many 3 gun matches out from under the "august presense" of U.S.P.S.A. where it was requierd to do so!! and NO death or mayhem occured. It didn't even scar the horses! I have yet to leve one behind in non match conditions, and see no need to start now. GREAT RULES KYLE, except for the shotgun thing, but then if every body is happy it isn't a real match.                      KURT

[SGDM]

Okay Boys,

We got rules, if you don't like 'em, don't go.  There ain't no rules in a gun fight!  Gear and Tactics are continuously evolving, so bring what you have and let's Blast.  The intent, is to somewhat keep the field even and have fun.  Gunfighters are always looking for an edge.  I agree with JL and my Rockets are better than his, I use a pipper!  The best match in the world is the NC 3 Gun.  This match is the standard!  KL, Mini is minor, G-cal is major.  Adios

[kurtm]

SGDM:

Watch that engagement with grenades, depending on wich way you orbit it can really throw them weird! Same-same M4 fire!! ROCK ON!!!!!!!!                        KURT

[Blane West]

The Rocky Mountain 3-gun Match is allowing ANY scope in tactical class as long as it's not over 4x, and yes you can bring your 4-12x variable but the shooter can only keep it on 4x.

Kyle ran his match in NC sort of like this and we all thought it was a great idea.

We are also running a HE-MAN class which the shooter has to run an iron sight .308 or larger rifle, a 12gauge and .45 pistol.

If all goes well, Kyle's match and our's will be the best two matches in 2003.

Blane West

[PacMan]

Blane & Kurt, so this is where you guys hang out.  How about adding the HE MAN Class to the next RM3G match at CCreek for a try-out?  HD

[kurtm]

PACMAN:

Just shoot limited, its an iron sight class anyway, and then shoot your favorite single stack gun. This is what won down at the last Pueblo match, M1A by the way. November 16th is the next RM3G at Aurora, would say hope to see you there but I'm off to the C.U., Iowa game. Eric, Jimmy and Blane will be there. Have Fun!!       KURT

[Blane West]

PAC MAN,

         I was going to talk to all the shooters at the next 3-gun match at Aurora Gun Club (Nov. 16) and see if they would like a HE-MAN class added. Kurt is right though, iron sight limited is pretty close. Let's talk about it at the match.   Blane

[PacMan]

I probably won't hit anything out there beyond 100, but would have way too much fun doing it .  Jimmy is going to regret letting go of that 'mystery' L1A1.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'm just going to have to keep dragging you guys back to the question, aren't I?

How do we define Tactical Class?

Kyle:  The use of tube (hidden inside) handguards in NRA and Service Match doesn't count, for two reasons:

1)  They're hidden, and are a means of getting around the "no external modifications" rule

2)  The tubes we're considering are the aluminum and carbon fiber replacements of handguards, on which one can bolt gear.

However, as tough as the carbon fiber ones are, I'm surprised some unit hasn't been using them.  Probably because you still need a rail to bolt the laser/GPS unit to it.

[kurtm]

Pat:

Kyle wasn't the one who said hiden free floats I.E. A.M.U. it was I. I am sure the free floats Kyle is talking about are like the new A.R.M.S. modular rail system fore ends that attach to the flat top rail and don't touch the barrel at all. by the way we have found these to be a MUCH better sytem of free float than anything else as it does not bear directly on the barrel nut when you hang stuff on them.

As for tactical class I don't feel that it can be defined because what is "tactical" for CQB is not for open deasert. Big weapon mounted lights are great in the city where as you don't want to light up the whole mountain side in a more rural setting. Some times the MOST tactical thing is a radio, and that would be very hard to score at a 3 gun match.

I like to think of tactical class as kind of a limited OPEN class. It lets people who aren't comfortable with iron sight shooting a venue without having to build very expensive FULL RACE open rifles. I feel that you and I have about the same Idea on what tactical is. Mine is a lightly modified M1A( unitized gas system,light pressure bedding, stock EVERYTHING else). For my environment it is ideal. When I was working in Bolivia, an M-4 would have been good, but my 12 ga. was even better...for that environment. What we are talking about are fairly stock guns that run all the time!!! BUT these are working guns and NOT play guns. I love my J.P. limited rifle, but I don't take it to work.

I say let tactical class stand much the way it is. Like at Kyles match, W.C.3G., or S.M.M.3G. It is a nice balance between iron sight , and full on race open.      KURT

[Colt1991]

Looks to me know one knows what the meaning of tactical is. So since no one knows can Mr. Webster please give us your definition of “tactical”.

[Blane West]

Mondo Shotgun Wizard,

  I'm getting in to the thread late,but after reading the posts I don't  know exactly what you are looking for. Are you trying to get a nationwide standard for Tactical Class?

I think that Kyle's idea of run what you want, works very well. If it's not tough enough and it breaks the shooter probably won't use that same 'item' again.

For the most part I agree with your Tactical rifle rules except the dual scope part.  I don't see at all where that would fit into tactical class. Also, what would be the reason for an open top mag carrier to support ten times the weight of the mag upside down?  

I think that all of us would change some gear in real life vs. competition, but to make rules that say you can only use real life gear in competition would be detrimental to the sport.(just my opinion).

Take care,   BW

[PacMan]

MSW - sorry, I didn't mean to move this discussion to irrelevant stuff.

BW - I agree with you about the open top carrier (or restrictions of).  I only do this for fun, however, if my gear ever fails me, I wouldn't use it again without modification or replacement.  About the dual scope on the rifle, wouldn't that be considered Open Class?    

[Patrick Sweeney]

Kurt,  I only went back to the latest post to mention tubes to reply.  Oops.  I'm trying to get my hands on an ARMS SIR handguard for T&E for the next book.  I'll report on it if I do.

The reason for ten times the weight for open topped mag holders was to make sure the mags stayed in.  I could settle for five.

The problem with a "Limited Open" is that we still have to define it.  If we allow any stealth technology but require the guise of a practical gun, I can build it.  (You want an M4-looking AR that shoots like an Open gun?  Done.)

Saying we need "tactical" but then leaving it up to the shooter to define is an invitation to competitor disatisfaction.  We can change definigitons, but we can't take back match results from vague ones.

And yes, the use defines the tactics and gear, but in real life the best outcome is often no shots fired and a tired radio battery from calling arty and air strikes.  That would be a real fun match, but hard to score.

OK, no dual scopes.  Do we allow red-dots and irons as backup?  Quick-detach scopes for changing between stages?

I agree that many matches are working on the problem.  But except for us real gearheads, who has enough equipment to either build a couple of rifles, or swap one rifle from one configuration to another?

[KyleL]

To all the girls I've loved before.... Oh sorry wrong chat room...

NC Tactical has been luck in the past. We have had mostly Military, Law enforcment, and fellas that want to have fun. A few guys you may have heard of also shoot the match and haven't over gamed the rules. Bennie C, Voigt, Jim Jr, Little Todd Salmon, and of course Kelly "The Man with the plan" Neal.

Kurt, No problem with making a rule on shotguns. No more than 9 can fit in the gun.

Rifle-one optic, no bipod, sling stays, muzzle breaks ok since the majority of our shooters already use them.

And yes, free float tubes....

At some point common sense has to be applied.

This year we had a couple of fellas that wanted to bend the rules. No problem we just said NO. No porting on the shotgun actually meant no porting. No race holsters also means no race holsters. When fellas have questions I tell them to bring what they want but don't be disappointed if we say no. So far peer pressure has worked pretty well.

Some of the game boys have shown up, but after a 300 yard jungle run, lowcrawling under wire, climbing across a rope, well they shut up and just try to finish the match. I am not trying to offend anyone but I don't want this match to be stifled by someone elses rules.

I don't plan on ever becoming a follower....

Hope some more of you fellas get a chance to shoot our match if we can run it again.

Blane I tried mailing you back but I am deployed right now so wasn't able to get the mail out to you. Definately want to shoot your match...

KyleL