Manual Rifle Side match

[BillL223]

I recently entered the 3-Gun Natls and the side match.  I do not not have a detachable magazine.  Is it best to load the integral mag and then single load the remaining shots or to reload the integral mag every 4 shots?  Where is the best place to carry ammo, Stock Pack? etc?

[Patrick Sweeney]

It depends on the stage design, but I'd think loading the mag up once you've done your four is not going to work.  I loaded the mag, then single loaded afterwards.  My time sucked, but it wasn't because of the single loading.  I just used an open bag, and snatched loose rounds out.  maybe a loading block would work better, but that's for practice in the spring.

[2alpha]

Not quite the same but close, the cowboy action shooters have found that it is quicker to single load their 97 pump shotguns  after running the tube dry than to load the tube back up.  

If you have a Mauser and stripper clips it would be different.

[George]

I would tend to think that once you are topped up, being in position and only having to work the bolt between rounds would ultimately be faster, and less distracting. I will have to test this via timer next time I am at the range with my bolter.

I developed a technique that gets a fifth round in my Remington. Load four in the mag, throw the fifth forward into the chamber area, then while working the bolt forward, reach over with the weak hand and depress the top round in the mag until the bolt goes over it. Voila, you've got five! A little bit of practice makes it real fast.

I took an old Uncle Mikes ammo belt pouch (type that folds open and holds two flat rows of four in elastic loops), and cut off the belt loops, folded it backwards, and put it around my weak forearm. I also modified mine to hold five rounds in the loops. A second one fits well around the front of a large objective scope. Makes the rounds real handy, and pre-oriented to boot.

Regards,  

(Edited by George at 12:41 am on Feb. 5, 2003)

[Chriss Grube]

That technique you developed is common for anybody that has ever hunted with a Remington or any other bolt gun. Hell been doing that since I was 8. Single loading of a wrist band holder with the off hand works pretty good. You just reach under the gun and toss it in. Same thing works good for loading a shotgun from a sidesaddle.

[George]

Yeah, I did learn that on a hunting trip long, long time ago. Just never had a real use/need for it until MOR mania set in.

Regards,

(Edited by George at 1:36 am on Feb. 5, 2003)

[BillL223]

Thanks for the info.  We had a "warm" day in the NE Monday so I went to the range and tried for the first time shooting my bolt gun with a timer.  I found my shot breaks on a 3" Target Dot @ 100 yds was about 7 seconds with rounds out of the magazine.  Single loading, they ran about 10 seconds  This seems to translate that I need to reload the magazine with 4 rounds in about 12 seconds to break even.  I doubt that I can do this so single loading seems to be the right idea after the mag is exhausted.  Has anybody tried to rig a side-saddle type set-up on the right side of the stock forward of the receiver?

[George]

The one thing I did run a timer on was putting 4, plus 1 in, and then getting back on target. On a 6" steel plate at 200 yards (3 MOA shot), shot to shot (with a hit each time, of course), I got four good runs of 11.75, 11.9, 14.6 & 10.8 seconds. The 10.8 was the only run where it went real smooth, with no bobbling (I never got under 11 seconds with dummy rounds). The 14.6 was real ugly. I am not willing to say how many times I didn't get a hit at each end ;-)

Each run was started while settled in with a good sight picture. When the timer beeped, I fired one round, then did the full reload, and fired one more round, then stopped, and recorded the time before resetting for the next string. I had the modified Uncle Mikes ammo holder wrapped around the scope objective, with the base of the rounds pointing down on the strong side. I grabbed, and dropped the rounds in with the strong hand, and used the weak hand fingers over the top of the action (under a fairly high mounted scope) to push rounds down, and into place while grabbing the next round with the strong hand. It takes some practice to do both at the same time (I'm really glad no one saw my first few attempts at this at home with dummy rounds, it was really embarassing).

I am pretty sure that around 10 seconds can be done consistently with enough practice (probably by someone better than me!). Anyone else have any times on something like this?

Of course, now I will have to go out and see what my splits will be single loading. I had never thought about this alternative before. Hmmm!

Regards,

[Scooter]

I guess this is where the Tubb2000 rifle will really shine.  Just hit the mag release and pop in another 20 round mag.

[George]

Gaming the MOR competition with manually operated AR's, Tubb 2000's, and other box magazine fed bolt actions, are all kinda out of the genuine feel that "Manually Operated Rifle" brings to my mind. I had to think about it a bit, but in the end, I realized that I would rather shoot a pure bolt action type rifle here.

Maybe the initial rules are not properly stated so as to prevent it becoming a box mag battle, or do we really need divisions (Open/Limited) in MOR too.

Regards,

[BillL223]

Per my reading of USPSA rules, MOR is restricted to 5 rounds capcacity.  Is this correct?

[Garrett]

Yes, 5 rounds in the gun max.  I don't think Scooter was suggesting loading more than this.  But a 20 round mag is usually the same length as a Colt 9 round mag (I think)  and I imagine more people have 20s.  Just download them.  

Does anyone even build a 5 round AR mag?

[George]

Yes, Five rounds is the maximum that can be loaded at one time. I think the actual capacity can be greater, you just can't load more than five.

This was probably intended to keep stripper clip fed rifles in the running (scopes make stripper clips somewhat impractical). No matter how you slice it, box magazines are a distinct advantage.

Regards,

[jhgtyre]

Gibbs Rifle Co sells a detachable box magazine for the 98K Mauser that might be pretty usefull if you are shooting one of those.  It only holds 3 but it might be faster than single loading.

-ld

[George]

I now have some repeatable times for hand loading five rounds in a Remington bolt action.

Dry fire, using full weight dummy rounds, I am consistently able to get at, or just under 11 seconds. This is from snap, to snap, with a sight picture too! I repeat, these times are for FIVE rounds loaded.

I made two changes to my method to get this to work consistently. First, I am using my weak hand under the receiver (palm up, fingers coming over the open side of the receiver) to push the rounds down after dropping them in place with the strong hand. I also moved my improvised 5 round, wrap-around ammo holder to the barrel, right in front of the receiver. This cuts hand motions way down. I am trying to stay as close to my actual rifle mounted position as possible during this process. This way I only have to slap the butt plate back into my shoulder pocket, grab a quick cheek weld, and figure out where the heck my next target is.

These two changes made the whole process smooth as glass, and very consistent at right around 11 seconds flat. The less I rushed, and the gentler I pushed the rounds into place, the smoother, and faster I got. My other tests with the weak hand over the top of the receiver were very inconsistent, and clumsy in comparison.

Now, off to the range to see what requiring a 3MOA hit at 200 yards adds to the mix.

Regards,

[George]

Just sent off my registration for the 3 gun nats, and the MOR match, and I noticed that USPSA has now divided MOR into Open, and Standard classes. Am I having a not quite senior moment here, or is this really different than it was in Vegas last year? I wasn't able to shoot the MOR event, so I don?t know for sure.

No big deal really. Looks like this puts all scopes, comps, and bipods in Open, and allows for box mags to run wild in either class. Because Standard means iron sights, it looks like stripper clips will be a viable option there.

I was also under the impression that pretty much everyone used optics last year. If irons & optics shoot the same course, then I am guessing that this will require lowering the difficulty level of the toughest shots to a do-able level (read visible to the naked eye) for iron sights. End result would then be Open class becoming a bit of a "speed shoot" type thing, where re-loading times will be a larger factor than before.

Thats what it looks like to me anyway.

I am indeed looking forward to this match.

See ya all there.

Regards,

[gm iprod]

I shoot a couple of SMLE No.4 Mk1. They are chambered 303 Brit, there are also large amounts around in 308Win. I have 10round and five round detachable mags for them and I am trying out using a 1.5 or 2.5x scout scope. Most importantly most of the SMLE No.4 rifles have a flip up aperture sight at the rear of the reciever. This little beauty is graduated to 1300yards and has a 300y ghost ring battle sight on the flip side. It can be loaded by stripper clip or spare mags. Monte carlo stock is std and they made millions of them so spares are every where. They are also quicker to cycle than a mauser as they are shorter stroke. Real cheap to. Most group 2" at 100y with good ammo, as long as the barrel is good.

A huge amount were made in Canada for the Brits during WW2 and I here that the Gibbs Co has a bunch of them that the rechambered to 308.

I think std is iron sights as issued with gun from factory, but I would think that would be a little silly.

I hope this gets going down here in New Zealand as well.

[BillL223]

I started this topic and have paid attention to all of the replies.  I haven't timed live fire yet but it seems to me that after you have exhausted the rounds in the rifle's magazine, it might be best to single load drawing rounds off the weak wrist,  using a wrist shell carrier, assuming the weak hand is squezzing a bean bag under the heel of the rifle.