riflemen Bennie and Kelly

[ErikW]

If you look at the 3 gun nationals results, you'll see Bennie Cooley and Kelly Neal are head and shoulders above the competition with their Limited rifles. Why is that? What are they doing differently? What are they not doing? Is everybody else wasting too much time on good sight pictures for 50 yard targets?

Don't be humble Kelly. Tell us what puts you in another league from also-rans like Taran Butler.

[Singlestack]

Great question!

My rifle shooting is my biggest 3-gun weakpoint. I would love to hear some pointers.

[kellyn]

I can't speak for Bennie but I think the biggest failing of 3 gunners is that they never really learned to shoot a rifle.  Most 3 gunners tend to have started out as pistol shooters and most can't put together an accurate shot with a rifle.

Accuracy is the most important fundamental, you can't hose down rifle targets at 300 yards.  With iron sights, sight alignment is critical.  You must consistently put the post in the center of the apeture.  

You need to figure out what kind of hold you're going to use at the farther targets and then zero accordingly.  You can either hold center of mass or use a 6 o'clock hold (putting the pumpkin on the post).  If you use a 6 o'clock, then you'll have to put your zero a bit higher.  I use a 6 o clock hold as it allows me to see the target and have a consistent elevation hold.  Usually, I'm zeroed about 1 1/2 high at 200.  While zeroing shoot from prone (not the bench) and shoot a lot of 5 shot groups.  Stay off the bench.

I almost always use any available rest, be it the magazine while prone or gripping the barricades while offhand.  You can shoot and pan much faster if you're rested.  The only time I don't rest is on easy shots where taking a rest while take too much time.

I also practice on targets that are much more difficult than those we typically see in 3 gun.  I do a lot of offhand snaps at a 4 inch plate at 100 and the chickens at 200 meters.  I go slow and smooth and focus more on accuracy than speed.  

Don't forget to breathe, shooting an iron sighted rifle requires visual acquity which degrades without oxygen.

Shoot with both eyes open.  Use tape on your weakeye glasses lens if need be.

Learn the basic postions: prone, sitting, kneeling, squatting, and offhand.  The apply those positions with the sort of rests that we see in 3 gun.

Bennie is awesomely accurate.  He shoots a lot of As.  You'll need good sight pictures and trigger breaks if you want to beat him!

[sfinney]

While I'm no rifle master, I have held my own with an AR at times....  

Before you can ask yourself "what's the secret of rifle marksmanship?", think back to when you started shooting IPSC and saw guys doing things that left you in awe... if you're like me, you also asked "what's the secret?" for pistol shooting.

The same answer applies to them both pistol and rifle (and shotgun) and took me years to figure out... and its been said on this forum repeatedly

PRACTICE. Rounds down range under all conditions, from all the basic postitions - have you shot your rifle nearly as much as your pistol? And for rifle, especially learning to shoot accurately at longer ranges - its an art.

Shooting from 300 yds to 600 yds at IPSC speeds can be very humbling. Learning to call your shots with iron sights is even more critical at those distances, you have to trust your sights, and be totally comfortable with them at all distances. Anyone can get all A's inside 50 yds with an AR - its at the longer distances where guys like Bennie, Clark, Voight, and the rest will eat your lunch.

When you see someone like Bennie Coolie shoot a relatively stock limited 20" Armalite AR and blow the doors off everyone shooting scoped $3000 open rifles, you realize that rifle marksmanship is becoming a lost art.

Sign up to shoot some local DCM matches, and milk everyone there for info, and just shoot - the practice will pay huge dividends. At least I enjoyed it!

One last comment - a "stock" AR works pretty well, if cleaned regularly, and probably shoots better than any of us can at most IPSC distances.  Spend your money on ammo (and maybe a good trigger job), but you don't need a hopped up rifle - reliability is key! (where have I heard that before?)  

Good Shooting!

[kellyn]

I really agree with the comment about Highpower/CMP/DCM matches.  If you can shoot expert or above across the highpower course, there's nothing that 3 gunning can throw at you that you can't easily handle.  Silohuette (highpower or smallbore) is a good discipline as well.  You could even shoot highpower silohuette with your 3 gun rifle but you won't consistently take the rams.  Other rifle sports focus much more on accuracy that typical 3 gunning (although with the exception of rattle battle, the other rifle sports are glacial) so in the off season go find a different rifle sports to play with.  I'm planning on doing some smallbore silohuette this summer.

I also agree about the comment about the stock AR.  You do need a good trigger and a skinny front sight though. Or at least I do  :-)

[Scott G]

Kelly,

Just curious - why zero from prone and avoid the bench?

[DogmaDog]

Man,

I'm gonna have to get into a 3 gun match.  Kelly is right on, but everything he's said is kinda "duh...I learned that in boot camp"  Marine recruits shoot out to 500 yards in their initial qualification, with stock M16A2s, and regular NATO ammo.  Boot Camp rifles are pretty beat up and rattly, but any one of them is sufficient to clean the course with.

In another thread Kelly mentioned use of a shooting sling, which can help a lot in prone and sitting positions.

Shooting NRA highpower will definitely help with the long range stuff.

You can get the Marine Corps' manual on rifle marksmanship here:

https://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/mcrp/htm/mcrp301A.htm

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[EricW]

---

Quote: from shooter40 on 7:53 pm on May 10, 2002

...you realize that rifle marksmanship is becoming a lost art.

---

No s***! I went to one range with moveable benches. I asked the RO if I could move one of them so I could shoot prone. He looked at me funny and then said, "Welllll....OK." Everyone on the line looked at me like I was from Mars. One guy came up to me and asked why I wasn't using the bench. I replied, "see a lot of benches out in the woods?" He just gave me a stupid look. None of those people had seen anyone shoot from position before. It was ridiculous.

Rifle marksmanship is certainly dying a rapid death. Until that day, I just took all of it for granted. I thought EVERYBODY knew the shooting positions. When I was young, they were taught in a public school of all places.

If people are that ignorant at a gun range, I shudder to think of what goes on at the rifle range at boot camp.

E

[Chriss Grube]

The best place to learn to shoot is PI. The PMI's there can take a city kid and make them into a crack shot. I think the Corps is the only branch that teaches marksmanship anymore. Hell the NRA patrol rifle course is all 50 yds and less!

[DogmaDog]

Eric,

No need to shudder.  Marine recruits spend a whole week just dry firing ALL DAY LONG from the 4 basic positions, surpervised by a Primary Marksmanship Instructor.  It's about 60 hours of "snapping in" before they ever fire a live round, and takes place after several hours of classes about marksmanship.  By the time they hit the firing line, they have the basics down pretty well.

My knees and elbows were so sore during snap-in week.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[EricW]

Dogma,

I just read part of the manual from the link that you posted. I wish I would have had read it 20 years ago. It's the best I've seen aside from BE's book. Well written, and I was really impressed by the humble tone too. From the cover page: "Got a better idea? Send it here..." I like that - a lot.

The military has never impressed my much, but the Marines keep impressing me more and more. Their basic artillerymen know more basic physics than most degreed engineers. Gotta get the nephew to sign up. It'll be the best thing that ever happened to him.

E

[Flexmoney]

Eric...I sent your contact info to your local recruiter...it's that or the coffe job.  don't wnat you getting burnt out in corporate life.      

[DogmaDog]

Eric (and others),

Thanks!  I'm glad it helped you out.  If you didn't notice, the rifle marksmanship manual comes from Quantico's Docrine Division homepage.  Within the last 5 years or so, they've undertaken to write several books on doctrine, written in English, without technical details, and they've done an excellent job.

There is also a "pistol marksmanship" manual from the same page (which is as good, but probably more common knowledge than in the rifle manual), and for a touch of Zen and mental preparation, Marine style, you can check out "Warfighting" for philosophy of the nature of war and how we should approach it (with application for the rest of us dealing with conflict in general).

Go here:

https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/

and look for "Marine Corps Doctrinal Publications" and "Marine Corps Warfighting and Reference Publications" on the menu at left.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[ErikW]

I've got some opinions on the subject after attending Cooley's rifle class, listening to him preach, and observing him put his techniques in action. He's all about taking his time to make the shot, then hauling arse to the next position. Even if it's only moving the rifle a foot or two to the side of a skinny barricade, he'll move the rifle violently fast. But he'll take his own sweet time from when he lays the gun on the target to when he pulls the trigger.

I realize this was a teaching environment, and he didn't have kellyn snapping at his heels with a national championship at stake, but I think I have an inkling of what makes him tick.

He also knows his shjt about positions. Like he's got a stable position worked out for bending over and shooting your gun sideways through a low horizontal slot. Or shooting through a chain-link fence.

[kellyn]

Bennie does haul ass from spot to spot.  He's very aggressive.

which class did you take?  Any other tidbits from the master?

[ErikW]

Vanilla AR-15 rifle class. I got the distinct impression the two day class imparted to us only about 0.25% of his knowledge on the subject.

He showed us how to clear the case-between-bolt-and charging-handle malfunction that cost me two minutes and 100+ points at the nationals.

Surprisingly little on actual shooting (basic trigger control and sight picture). But he hounded me for not following through and "staying on the gun" when making the shot.

He never let us shoot two shots on the same target; we always had to move to another position, or at least transition to another target, usually both. He only had us shooting prone twice, once to verify zero and once in an exercise for moving from kneeling to prone.

I'm going to put his kneeling supported position (back leg up, strong arm braced against knee, weak hand with rifle against barricade) high on my list of tricks. It hurts like hell, though, and I have a habit of going into the usual kneeling position.

He prefers 68/69 gr bullets with a crimp (nyeah, nyeah) to buck the wind, but he'd prefer the 75 A-Max, which isn't mag length. He's fine with 55 FMJ plinkers for close targets where accuracy and wind don't matter.

[Patrick Sweeney]

And learning to improve IPSC shooting by spending a season doing NRA Hi-power is much the same as learning to make head shots easy by spending a winter or two on an indoor PPC league.  Trying to punch all your shots through a playing card sized target teaches you sight alignment, if nothing else.  I was a much better shooter for having spent that time indoors with a bunch of cops who mostly couldn't shoot.

[kellyn]

He's been beating me with crimped bullets!!!!!!!  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

[ErikW]

ROFLMAO!

If it's any consolation, I think he said he liked a light crimp.