Individual Rehearsal Of Stages

[Sac Law Man]

Per the IDPA rule book (page 8) individual rehearsals of a COF are not permitted. Is this rule clear to you, or is their room for interprettion? Today at a sanctioned match our club hosted, a Saftey Officer "warned" a competitor for planting their feet at the corner of a mock building and peeking around the side in order to see the targets. This shooter did not take the warning well at all. When spoken to about thier unsportsmanlike conduct, the shooter admitted to placing thier feet at the corner of the building and looking around the corner at the targets to see if they would be breaking cover if they stopped there during the stage. The shooter argued that was not a rehearsal. Any thoughts?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Per the IDPA rule book (page 8) individual rehearsals of a COF are not permitted.  Is this rule clear to you, or is their room for interprettion?  Today at a sanctioned match our club hosted, a Saftey Officer "warned" a competitor for planting their feet at the corner of a mock building and peeking around the side in order to see the targets.  This shooter did not take the warning well at all.  When spoken to about thier unsportsmanlike conduct, the shooter admitted to placing thier feet at the corner of the building and looking around the corner at the targets to see if they would be breaking cover if they stopped there during the stage.  The shooter argued that was not a rehearsal.    Any thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I added emphasis to the quote of your post. If this happened during a squad walk through, the rule has nothing to do with it because he was with the group of competitors.

If it happened while picking up brass and taping targets or before the walk through, I can see why the SO did what he did although I do not agree with it.

With the way the rules are now written, I see this being a problem at matches with those that want to be enforcers. As far as the shooter not taking the warning well, he needs to lighten up a little too.

Regards,

[John Dunn]

Under the rules, I think the SO made the right call.

Which goes to show that given an inherently fun activity (shooting) there will be some who feel driven to suck the fun out of it.

Hopefully he didn't have a mag or box of pasters in his hand (yes, I know this is the IDPA forum).

[Joe D]

I guess this gets back to the "scripted" stages that IDPA seems to need. Listen, one can get as many walk throughs as needed while repairing the targets.

There appears to be three classes of IDPA shooters, those that are just there to shoot and have fun, those (gamers) that want to win and the anal retentive hardcore that actually think IDPA is some kind of training. The last tend to fall into the Bill Wilson anti-IPSC thinking pattern.

I designed four of the stages at the last Alabama IDPA State Championship Match. Three of the four had more than one way in which they could be shot. This totally blew a couple of the hardcore IDPA shooters minds. They actually had to think. On one of the stages I just wanted the instructions to say shoot them as you see them. I guess that would have been too IPSCish for some of the hardcore types.

As an SO I could care less if a guy is doing a subtle walk through as he is pasteing. Would I allow him to take a firing position and air gun, no, of course not. How is an SO supposed to determine if a shooter is doing a walk through on his way to paste? Kinda falls into the other stupid IDPA rule of dumping rounds. Then there is the brillant rule that says you must retain that empty mag if there is still a round in the gun.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. The one rule change that did make sense was the two -3s = FTN. Do I like IDPA? Yes, my wife and I shoot 4-5 matches a month. Some of the dumb things just need to go away.

[rmills]

The SO made the correct call.

[Sac Law Man]

The shooter in question was not participating in a group walk-through, but did it during the taping of targets...

After the match, another SO said they saw this same person doing it (rehearsing) on their stage, but he did not say anything.

I commended the SO for issuing the warning, he could of given a procedural. He used good descretion and judgement and was professional about it.

[sig226sig]

Actually, it was right before the shooter was to "load and make ready", that the shooter looked around the corner from P1. I personally wouldn't call that a rehearsal of the CoF. I hope this is not the direction IDPA is headed. If you take such literal interpretations of the whole rule book, it becomes a very punitive sport.

Further how far do you take it? Does a seperate S.O. "safety walk through" mean the SO's got an unfair, separate walk through? How about someone who SO's the stage before they shoot it themselves? What about the person that sets up the stage, how many "individual rehearsals of the CoF" did he do? Hmmm...Crazy right?

"Almost" Everyone looks around the corners, paces targets off, while they tape, pick up brass, SO, or while on deck. There's no fair way to eliminate it.

[Sac Law Man]

The shooter did more than just "look around the coner" as the above post mentions.. Here is the RO's description from an email sent to me by him;

"It was right around the time that the ASO recorded the score and got the

previous shooter's initials. The tapers were on their way back uprange. She

was the next shooter. She was already inside the cable, planting her foot

and looking around the corner. It was obvious, otherwise I wouldn't have

given her the warning"

Looking is not a rehearsal, but when you plant your feet then look, it becomes a rehearsal. The shooter even admitted, they were seeing if they stopped in that spot during the match, would they be breaking cover. That is something they should determine during the stage, not before hand. What was the purpose of the shooter doing this? It was to save time and avoid a potential procedural. This is the exact reason rehearsals are not permitted.

Then to try and justify the actions of one by making comments about the SO's, is ridiculous. Of course the stage designers, match directors and SO's may be more familiar with the stages then the shooters. However, I seriously doubt they volunteer in order to gain any type of competitive advantage. In addition, these volunteers worked hard to put on a great match for 100 other shooters, not for their own benifit.

Also, all the SO's shot the day before. They were given a walkthrough just like everyone else, there was no prefrential treatment given what so ever.

The worst part was the shooter was only given a WARNING, take your medicine and walk away..

[sig226sig]

No one is saying that the SOs, MDs, or people setting up the stages do it to get that extra advantage. But they do, right? So how do you keep it a level playing field?

I just happen to witness the "rehearsal" call, and later, on the same stage, a shooter in my squad, had to get the MD involved just to get a reshoot after the cable had hung up on a pully. The SO said it was not a range failure since he could not duplicate the failure. He did get his reshoot.

Then on the same stage, since we are talking literal interpretation of the rule book, shooters were required to check there gun in the IDPA box with a "fully loaded magazine" in place.

Not to continue to bash this one stage or SO, but I don't think it was handled professionally. he seemed a little confrontational.

Don't get me wrong, It was still a good match. And thanks to all that put in there time and effort. But I think there are some questions that should be answeared to avoid problems in the future.

As far as the call, only Bill Wilson can answer what the true meaning of "rehearsal" is. So Bill?????

[Clay1]

Guess I'm going to have to stop rehersing what I am going to do during the stage -NOT. Don't be goofy, of course I will plan that I will stand here and engarge this target first etc. I will plan where to do my reloads. I will see if I can shoot any other targets from the location where I can first see them no matter what the designer tried to do. I see it as the designers job to set up a challenging COF and my job to see how best to shoot the COF. OK, I can't air gun like I do in USPSA, but now I can't stand and look around a barricade. In my mind I will know what I will do in as much detail as my mind can invision it. This is a game and I am here to do the best (get the highest score) that I am capable of getting without cheating. I don't accept that this is cheating, I accept that it is competitive and smart.

[f250sd]

I was also there when the WARNING was issued. I have to disagree with the call, I just don't believe that it was a rehearsal of the stage.

I must say I totally agree with CLAY1's post. Through out the day, I think just about everyone I say was doing some kind of checking firing positions and looking at targets, you'd be crazy not to.

[Sac Law Man]

Sig226sig..

I agree as I think everyone would, there is lot of room for interpretation and some issues need clarification.. But if the SO gives a waring there is no need to argue or get others involved, its just bad business..

The situation with the cable getting hung up invloved another SO, not the same one. As the MD I disagreed with the SO's call and gave the shooter a re-shoot..

Also, at the IDPA nationals,, we shot a stage where the gun was loaded and started in the IDPA box, not once but twice (2 strings), one where you drew the weapon with your strong hand, the next with the weak.

Glad you enjoyed then match.

[p99shooter]

I am the SO in question.

First, I am not a confrontational person. People that know me were surprised about this.

Second, the rules are the rules. You might wish the three point line was at 21 feet instead of 23 feet 9 inches, or that a touchdown was worth ten points instead of six; but they are not. Just because you THINK that something is not cheating does not mean that it ISN'T cheating. If you don't agree with the rules of the game, don't play.

Third, the argument that you should be allowed to cheat because other people cheat (or might cheat) is the equivalent of playground "neener neener neeeeener," which I won't dignify by discussing further. Next time you get busted for speeding, try convincing the officer that you should not get a ticket because other people speed too. Let me know how that goes.

The only thing left that anyone can argue is what constitutes a rehearsal of a stage.

What "mental picture" do you get if I tell you that an actor is holding a rehearsal for a television show? What I see is a person on a stage, moving to locations as called for in the script, speaking her/his lines, taking cues, and so on.

Standing 30 feet away from the firing line and looking at the targets is not a rehearsal, because you are not performing the actions that you would while shooting (you are not on the "stage"). Looking at targets while you are taping and brassing is not a rehearsal for the same reason, because you are not actualling moving in the same path that you would if you were shooting.

Stage designers must perform rehearsals for practical reasons, to ensure that there are no shoot-throughs, or shots over the berm, and other safety/procedural reasons. However, this is not the same as somebody walking through a scenario, checking there cover positions and target alignment WHEN THEY ARE ON DECK. Stage designers and SOs perform these rehearsals hours, sometimes even days, before they will shoot it. I'll bet that any improvement of those rehearsals is minimal compared to someone who does it right before they are about to shoot.

If you rehease (or plan, your choice) how you will shoot a stage by actually walking up to the course of fire, starting where you would start, walking where you would walk, planting a foot and checking your cover, leaning out to see the first target you would engage, THAT is against the rules. I have no problem with people that look at the stage and rehearse it in their head, or stand back 30 feet and look at where the targets are. Like BE says, it's a game of high speed precision, and you better have a plan. To keep in line with the purpose and principles of IDPA though, we have to draw the line somewhere in what leeway we give shooters in allowing them to plan.

The shooter mentioned in the original post was not the only peron I warned for performing a rehearsal. Others did similar things, and they were warned as well.

For shooters that think that they would have to perform rehearsals like these to be competitive and win, none of the division champions did anything like what I described above. They may have stood back from the COF and observed the targets, but the only time they came near the start position was after I told them to LAMR.

[sig226sig]

For shooters that think that they would have to perform rehearsals like these to be competitive and win, none of the division champions did anything like what I described above. They may have stood back from the COF and observed the targets, but the only time they came near the start position was after I told them to LAMR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WOW, you sure about that one? I beg-to-differ!

A shooter that asked you a question about the same CoF, while on deck, was given a seperate walk through by you.

You don't find it strange you were the only SO to make such a warning?

Just because YOU think someone is cheating, does not mean they are cheating.

"Remember the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt" Current IDPA rule book, pg.53

Also from the rule book:

"Certified Safety Officers are the people whose purpose and goal is for all the shooters at the match to have a safe and enjoyable day at the range by directing the shooter through the course of fire. Safety Officers must be at least 21 to be IDPA certified. To become a certified Safety Officer, you must participate in a safety officer class taught by one of the safety officer instructors listed on the IDPA web site or an area coordinator.

The Safety Officer is one of the most vital and visual representatives of IDPA. Contestants interact with the Safety Officers more than any other official at a match."

Also, if you want to be technical, going by what you say a rehearsal is, the shooter then only rehearsed a single shooting position, not the CoF. correct? That then would not be against the rules.

SOing can be a tuff job if you make it one.

Sorry but I still feel it is a bad call.

[p99shooter]

I gave a shooter a walk-through; that is not the same as an individual rehearsal. In a walk-through, I perform the actions as if I were shooting the stage. In an individual rehearsal, the shooter performs those actions. I'll give any shooter that asks a question about the stage a walk-through, but I wouldn't let a shooter rehearse the stage themself.

I may have been the only SO that gave a warning, but I was not the only SO to notice the behavior of said shooter. Note Sac Law Man's ealier post. The other shooters whom I warned about their rehearsals took the warning well, without arguing, and ceased their rehearsal.

"Remember the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt" : I did give the shooter the benefit of the doubt; they received a warning instead of a procedural penalty.

Your argument that it's not against the rules to rehearse part of a stage, only the whole stage, is completely without merit. I would refer you to the "IDPA Purpose" and "IDPA Principles" sections of the rulebook on pages 4 and 5, respectively.

It may be the opinion of some people that it was a bad call, but it was my call to make. I was wearing the red hat that day, and if at some point in the future someone with a red hat tells me that I did a no-no, I'll listen quietly to their explanation without arguing that the rulebook is wrong or suggesting that because other shooters cheat then I can cheat too.

[Sac Law Man]

We can go around and around on this all day.. The point is the SO made a call, and the call should be respected. The person in question and those close to that person are obviously likely to disagree with the call.

For someone who has played sports their entire life and even at the professional level, I have seen good calls and bad while engaged in competition. Its going to happen. I find it surprising how people react to such situations. Like I said earlier, it was just a warning. The SO in question is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

If the shooter in question had just said "ok, I may not agree with you, and I may seek clarification later but I wont do it again" This whole discussion would not be an issue.

[sig226sig]

I'm sorry p99shooter, but it is only your opinion that it is a violation of the rules, I don't know you personally,

Edited to remove a personal attack.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Nik Habicht

[firewalker]

OK on course rehearsals.

I drove over 100 miles to shoot in a major match. I am an active SO but was not at this match. We had one high level shooter that rehearsed every stage, to the point that all others in his group were distracted and were not even able to have a good match.. Most of the shooters ignored his airgunning theatrics as did the SO. When I finially had enough i started hollaring air gunning and everyone would stare at him,,, Now its not that i have a nazi attitude. But I ended up going to the MD to have him stop.....

My point is there is a line to be drawn....there was no proceedural given just a warning. But we have to start somewhere or tollerate the inconsiderate slob shooter like i did. As a result of my experience i will go directly to the MD and be re squadded. I will never shoot with that *** again

Frederick Haring

[California Gunner]

I was the Asst. Match Director at this match. When the Match Director and I were talking to this person, she became rude in her behavior and told be to "back off"(shut up) while I was explaining the new "rehearsal" rule which she knew nothing about. Later her husband who is the IDPA AREA COORDINATOR approached me and said that she did not do an individual walk-through. I told him that she was warned about the new "individual rehearsal" rule. He then told me that ther was no rule like that and to show him the rule in the rule book if there was. I walked him to my car and showed him in the Competition Rules section on pg. 9,C4. He looked at the rule for about thirty seconds and then dismissed the rule because there was no definition of "rehearsal".

If they both would have read the new rule book, none of this would have happened.

[firewalker]

California Gunner sounds like u made the right calls.

Sorry about the earlier drift and rant... sometimes these threads bring up issues that we deal with on continous basis,

Frederick Haring

[Ted Murphy]

Well I did not see what happened so it would be nearly impossible to say one way or another who was right here. Of course it does not matter because the SO made the call and the MD backed it up, though I must point out it was not much of a "call" as no one got penalized although it would seem a few of the players got hot under the collar.

I do believe most the people involved here have seen or can visualize the difference between someone who is noting the appropriate angles and target engagement while going about taping, and someone who is overtly making a dry run of the stage under the guise of helping reset targets. The former is to be expected, the latter is to be discouraged.

This is one of those things that is in the eye of the match official, be it the SO or MD, and like it or not- the MD has the final say. (pp 55 for those who are interested in such things)

There seems to me to be a small clash of wills that went along with this "incident", I do hope at the end of the day you all stay friends.

Ted

[f250sd]

My main concern is what is the correct interpretation of this rule so that it can be uniform every where. This is the problem that continues in IDPA, every club seems to have different views on certain rules. I want to be able to go to any club in the USA and do the same thing. Without an official def. of "rehearsal" I feel it is an unenforceable rule, exept in extreme cases, like firewalker talks about.

[California Gunner]

You don't have to deflect the fact that the AREA COORDINATOR did not know the IDPA rule book and he and his wife both didn't handle the warning very well by confronting the SO, Match Director and the Asst. Match Director.

Edited to remove another poster's quote containing a personal attack.

Edited May 12, 2005 by Duane Thomas

[itento]

I get such a kick out of these discussions. It looks like another AD right in the BIG TOE!

If the "purposes" and "principles" dictate that individuals should not visualize the COF, then all COFs should be run blind with no written course descriptions. Shooters should not be allowed in the COF area before its their turn to shoot, and then are read the scenario just before the LAMR command. In fact, if the COF is hidden by vision barriers, that's even better. After shooting, they stick around and tape for the following shooter/s. Of course, all COFs should be shot off time (you sure wouldn't be sticking your head around a corner if you thought there might be a BG waiting to shoot it off, without having some kind of diversionary tactic and you just might wait for the BG to come to you ) and any time a shooter stumbles on to a self exposure, they should receive a procedural ( you just got shot at ) not a COVER warnings.

The above would really deffierentiate IDPA from the other un-named practical shooting sport. They actually REQUIRE a written course description; allow individuals to view targets from shooting props/views during initial walk thru, and if you are the "shooter on deck", it is expected that you will be getting ready and can refresh your "plan" while others tape and pickup brass. Now there is a prohibition against using a "tool" as a sighting device while rehersing the COF, but as I understand it, this is mainly to keep someone from bringing a gun replica on the COF.

I think the biggest complaint I've read/heard is that there is too much discression and judgement in interpreting and enforcing the rules, and a lot of that is due to the way they are written. If I'm picking up brass and look around a barracade, I don't want some SO (or another competitor) yelling "rehersal, rehersal!). If you don't want me to see what is down range, then don't let me go or look down range.

[California Gunner]

There is no need to deflect the fact that the IDPA AREA COORDINATOR and his wife did not know the rule book and did not handle the warning well by now dismissing the SO's call as "only his opinion" and calling him derogatory phrase removed

Reverse this and ask who was derogatory phrase removed by confronting the SO, Match Director and the Asst. Match Director in a rude abusive manner for only a WARNING.

I know p99shooter and he has NEVER displayed a derogatory phrase removed style in his SOing.

Edited to remove another poster's quote containing a personal attack.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Nik Habicht