Unloaded Gun Starts?

[Crusher]

When a stage decription states the start position for the gun as "unloaded" (no other description) what is acceptable?

eg: slide locked back? slide in battery hammer down? slide in battery hamer back?

[BSeevers]

I have done all 3 as its usually stated specifically in the description. If its not, then its freestyle.

[lynn jones]

When a stage decription states the start position for the gun as "unloaded" (no other description) what is acceptable?

eg: slide locked back? slide in battery hammer down? slide in battery hamer back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the course description needs to be more specific and should be.

lynn

[omnia1911]

When a stage decription states the start position for the gun as "unloaded" (no other description) what is acceptable?

eg: slide locked back? slide in battery hammer down? slide in battery hamer back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the course description needs to be more specific and should be.

lynn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Lynn.

Handgun ready conditions are not freestyle.

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different

to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition

must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing.

[Crusher]

Thanks will pass the info along

[Carlos]

Have seen most variations.

As a shooter, I will take advantage of a poorly-worded description by locking the slide to the rear, propping the gun on one mag and placing the one I plan to load with on the table aimed right at the magwell & maybe 1/2" from the gun or else balanced on one end.

For this reason, I design stages with language "gun must start slide forward, hammer down, no proping up the gun with the magazine or balacing gun to stand upright, . . etc. Some open guns have been modified so that they no longer have a provision for locking open.

We have had 1 or 2 stages here in Area 8 where mags had to be unloaded. This is controversial for 2 reasons:

1) Its a test of mag loading speed & not shooting skill and

2) Revolvers were allowed to use loaded moon clips (and the revolvers beat every other gun). Its true that a 625 will usually fire without the moonclip, but a 610 using .40 may not work; hence the allowance of loaded moonclips.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[Flexmoney]

If the stage desciption simply says "Unloaded gun on the table", then that is clear...the gun only has to be unloaded.

If the slide is back...so what...as long as the gun is unloaded.

[Flexmoney]

We have had 1 or 2 stages here in Area 8 where mags had to be unloaded. This is controversial for 2 reasons:

I am pretty sure that that is illegal. 8.1.4 would seem to cover that.

...propping the gun on one mag and placing the one I plan to load with on the table aimed right at the magwell & maybe 1/2" from the gun or else balanced on one end.

Unless the stage description allow you to specifically have a mag on the table, that is a no-no.

(Maybe there is another rule, but this will do)

5.2.5 and your (Division specific) Appendix will say how far from the torso you mags can be (50mm)

[mactiger]

Ready condition does need to be spelled out in detail. But, if it's not, it's freestyle, as long as the gun meets the definition of an "unloaded" gun, per the rules.

Troy

[ErikW]

We encountered these at the Columbus Cup. Despite the match status (Level III?) the descriptions only said unloaded, no mention of 8.1. So the very first stage I locked my gun open and put it on the start surface. The CRO made me close the slide and drop the hammer. Whatever. As long as the CRO is there every day and making every shooter do it the same, I'm not going to file an arbitration.

[Nik Habicht]

We have had 1 or 2 stages here in Area 8 where mags had to be unloaded. This is controversial for 2 reasons:

I am pretty sure that that is illegal. 8.1.4 would seem to cover that.

...propping the gun on one mag and placing the one I plan to load with on the table aimed right at the magwell & maybe 1/2" from the gun or else balanced on one end.

Unless the stage description allow you to specifically have a mag on the table, that is a no-no.

(Maybe there is another rule, but this will do)

5.2.5 and your (Division specific) Appendix will say how far from the torso you mags can be (50mm)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flex,

as to the first, no one's apparently stopping the shooter from stuffing extra rounds in his mags --- it's just happening on the clock, and I see nothing in 8.1.4 to prevent that......

It's the kind of situation though that would have me reconsidering attending the match.......

[omnia1911]

Ready condition does need to be spelled out in detail.  But, if it's not, it's freestyle, as long as the gun meets the definition of an "unloaded" gun, per the rules.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you stated contradicts 8.1.3.

Simply saying "unloaded" is anything but clear. That is why there is so many interpretations of that ready condition.

Shouldn't any alternate ready condition be as equally clear as 8.1.1 and 8.1.2?

[LPatterson]

Actually 8.1.3 states "Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different than those stated above. In which cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing.

Shouldn't any alternate ready condition be as equally clear as 8.1.1 and 8.1.2?

See color portion above.

[omnia1911]

I noticed that there was nothing indicated in the start position provided in this thread that the gun was being placed on an object or holstered when "unloaded". Was that to be freestyle too?

I would contend that if an unloaded gun is placed on an object for the start position the required ready condition is slide locked open and magazine removed, or in the case of a revolver, cylinder open and empty (10.5.3.5 and 10.5.3.6). otherwise it is a DQable offense. Nothing freestyle about this.

Do we agree on the clarity of that ready condition? Maybe its not so clear. What if the self loader doesn't lock back?

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

On a side note: Knowing how persnikitty some are about proper range commands, what is the correct command to start the COF when the gun is to be unloaded? The rulebook says that only LAMR starts the COF; no variations are given.

[omnia1911]

Actually 8.1.3 states "Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different than those stated above. In which cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing.

Shouldn't any alternate ready condition be as equally clear as 8.1.1 and 8.1.2?

See color portion above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess it comes down to what the meaning of "clearly" is.

[Nik Habicht]

On a side note: Knowing how persnikitty some are about proper range commands, what is the correct command to start the COF when the gun is to be unloaded? The rulebook says that only LAMR starts the COF; no variations are given.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've answered your own question.......

[LPatterson]

8.3.1 line 4 snip "fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing."

I guess it comes down to what the meaning of "clearly" is.

Is this Clintonese for "I did not have sex with that woman."

[JMD]

Check out the "March 2005 Interpretations" to the IPSC Handgun Rules, Jan. 2004 Edition, for explicit language addressing "alternate" starts.

Specifically: 8.3.1 "Load and Make Ready" (or "Make Ready" for...)

Hope this is of some help,

Joel

[mactiger]

Ready condition does need to be spelled out in detail.  But, if it's not, it's freestyle, as long as the gun meets the definition of an "unloaded" gun, per the rules.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you stated contradicts 8.1.3.

Simply saying "unloaded" is anything but clear. That is why there is so many interpretations of that ready condition.

Shouldn't any alternate ready condition be as equally clear as 8.1.1 and 8.1.2?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read what I said. If the ready condition is not spelled out, and merely states unloaded, then any state the gun can be in and still be considered unloaded per the rules is legal (see 10.5.13). If it's not "loaded", then it's got to be "unloaded". I'm not advocating writing a stage briefing in this manner, merely saying what would qualify if "unloaded" was all that was called for, as in Crusher's original question: "When a stage decription states the start position for the gun as "unloaded" (no other description) what is acceptable?"

Troy

[BSeevers]

Yea

What Troy said

[Carlos]

Well, I meant it when I used the word "controversial".

BTW, the start in question was NOT at a Level III match. In fact, it was simply a local club match. THere were of course no arbitrations filed & it was only 1 of 4 stages that day (& it let the wheelgunners win one for once). Due to the controversy (then & now) I am not planning on using it at our match.

However, I often use regular unloaded starts (the specific instructions) at our indoor match - particularly where a shooter has to do something with his/her hands 1st, like turn over a card, or pick up an object. For our newer shooters, this tends to cut down on sweeping problems or problems associated with focusing on something other than the muzzle direction. The first action is completed, THEN they go for the gun & load from the belt or table. Regards, C.

[omnia1911]

Ready condition does need to be spelled out in detail.  But, if it's not, it's freestyle, as long as the gun meets the definition of an "unloaded" gun, per the rules.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you stated contradicts 8.1.3.

Simply saying "unloaded" is anything but clear. That is why there is so many interpretations of that ready condition.

Shouldn't any alternate ready condition be as equally clear as 8.1.1 and 8.1.2?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read what I said. If the ready condition is not spelled out, and merely states unloaded, then any state the gun can be in and still be considered unloaded per the rules is legal (see 10.5.13). If it's not "loaded", then it's got to be "unloaded". I'm not advocating writing a stage briefing in this manner, merely saying what would qualify if "unloaded" was all that was called for, as in Crusher's original question: "When a stage decription states the start position for the gun as "unloaded" (no other description) what is acceptable?"

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand.

My point is that "unloaded" is incomplete information. 3.2 says that the handgun ready condition must be provided. Handgun ready conditions (8.1) instruct on chambers, hammers, safeties.

If you want the gun unloaded, the written stage briefing should say empty chamber, magazine removed, hammer down or cocked, safety on or off (safety may be irrelevant in the case of an unloaded gun). And, as I stated earlier, placing the gun on a table during the COF may dictate some of the ready condition in order to avoid a DQ.

[Flexmoney]

Omni,

Which part of the described ready condidtion of "unloaded" isn't clear?

[omnia1911]

Omni,

Which part of the described ready condidtion of "unloaded" isn't clear?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is as clear as if you only told me that my gun was to be "loaded".