Oops, How Do I Tell The Difference Between Springs

[GeorgeInNePa]

Ok, I tried new ISMI springs in my guns. I had a few issues with the 34 today at the range. I wanted to put the stock spring and guide rod back in. I replaced the stock parts in the 34 with a captured stainless rod and a 13lb spring. I put an extended tugsten rod and 15lb spring in the 35.

Of course I didn't put the stock guide rods and springs in a marked package! I think I have the stock setup from the G34 back in it now, the gun works.

How does one tell the difference between the springs? The springs look very similar.

[SRT Driver]

No difference between G17, G22, G24, G17L, G34, G35.

The G19, G23 are different, as are G26, G27.

[GeorgeInNePa]

No difference between G17, G22, G24, G17L, G34, G35. 

The G19, G23 are different, as are G26, G27.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's no difference in spring rate?

[Clay1]

George, tell me about the problems that you had at the range today?

The reason that I asked is that when I first put in an extended, full length guide rod my slide would bind. I thought that the part was defectice. It would slide up to the top of the hole and bind on the slide. I then figured out that the springs have two ends. One end is smaller and should go toward the front of the muzzle which will center the long guide rod and not cause slide binding.

Maybe I am all wet, but when you said what you changed out and then that you had troubles, this is the first thing that I thought of. If I am way off of base forgive me. If this is what happened to you, put that lighter spring back in and the extended guide rod and you WILL notice a substaintial difference in getting back on target with less muzzle flip.

I am currently running two G34s. One is set up for SSP/Production and the other is my ESP gun. I put a JP magwell on the ESP gun to round it out and really enjoy shooting that one. My splits and transitions are quicker with it. Again, sorry if I am way off of base here.

Rick

[Clay1]

George, forgot about the different springs. Might sound funny but I hold them both in one hand at the end and then bend them with my other index finger. I can tell which one is stiffer and that one has the higher weight rating. Try it and you should be able to tell.

Rick

[GeorgeInNePa]

George, tell me about the problems that you had at the range today? 

The reason that I asked is that when I first put in an extended, full length guide rod my slide would bind.  I thought that the part was defectice.  It would slide up to the top of the hole and bind on the slide.  I then figured out that the springs have two ends.  One end is smaller and should go toward the front of the muzzle which will center the long guide rod and not cause slide binding.

Maybe I am all wet, but when you said what you changed out and then that you had troubles, this is the first thing that I thought of.  If I am way off of base forgive me.  If this is what happened to you, put that lighter spring back in and the extended guide rod and you WILL notice a substaintial difference in getting back on target with less muzzle flip.

I am currently running two G34s.  One is set up for SSP/Production and the other is my ESP gun.  I put a JP magwell on the ESP gun to round it out and really enjoy shooting that one.  My splits and transitions are quicker with it.  Again, sorry if I am way off of base here.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rick,

I put a standard length stainless rod with a 13 ISMI spring in my G34 two weeks ago. I gave it a 50rd "torture" test and it seemed fine. I shot a match on Sunday(140 or so rds.) and it worked fine. Today I had two failures to feed.

The rounds striped from the mag and fed almost all the way into the chamber. The slide went almost all the way back into battery. The slide stopped just shy of locking up the barrel. The round didn't make it all the way up the breechface. Light pressure on the back of the slide made it pop into battery.

The gun isn't that dirty, maybe 500 rounds through it. the ammo is 115gr American Eagle(Federal).

I did notice a small reduction in muzzle flip, with the 13lb spring. Not a lot, but just enough to notice on a 15 yard target.

[Flexmoney]

Buy the springs from Brownell's?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Buy the springs from Brownell's?

I bought them from Custom Glock Racing. I think I know what you're getting at, I think I remember reading something about Brownell's having some bad springs. That's what you meant, right?

Edited April 21, 2005 by Flexmoney

[SRT Driver]

George,

There's no difference in spring rate?

For the stock spring, no. They are all the same for G34/35/17 etc. The way Glock controls cycling speed is the weight of the slide. this is why a G17 does not have a cut out, the 34/35 do, and the 24 has a larger cut out to lighten the slide.

Of course I didn't put the stock guide rods and springs in a marked package!

I thought by the above atatement that you were asking about the stock setup which are all the same for the std size Glock frame (G22, G35, G17, G34)

If you are talking about aftermarket springs, you should test the weight with a spring tester and trim them to permit full slide travel.

I electropencil the weight onto the spring when I take it out of the package..ISMI springs are indentical in appearance.

[GeorgeInNePa]

George,

There's no difference in spring rate?

For the stock spring, no. They are all the same for G34/35/17 etc. The way Glock controls cycling speed is the weight of the slide. this is why a G17 does not have a cut out, the 34/35 do, and the 24 has a larger cut out to lighten the slide.

Of course I didn't put the stock guide rods and springs in a marked package!

I thought by the above atatement that you were asking about the stock setup which are all the same for the std size Glock frame (G22, G35, G17, G34)

If you are talking about aftermarket springs, you should test the weight with a spring tester and trim them to permit full slide travel.

I electropencil the weight onto the spring when I take it out of the package..ISMI springs are indentical in appearance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, thanks. You had my question right, I was asking about the stock springs. I didn't know there was no difference.

[Clay1]

George, the reason that Flex asked about origin of the springs is that there were some problems with a batch of ISMI spring that were sold through Brownells. They weren't tempered right and with compression they took a set which made them less effective and they would not return the gun to full battery as you described. CGR springs should be fine. So should a 13 pound spring in a G17 or a G34. I would definately clean the gun and remember with these Glocks that they need lubrication just sparingly - don't over do it.

One G34 I run with a stock rod and an ISMI 13# spring. The other G34 I run an oversized SS full length guide rod which is larger in diameter than will work with the ISMI springs so I run a 12 # Wolf with that one. IDPA doesn't allow tungstun and the extended length with large diameter SS lets me game the gun to the max and stay legal.

Clean the gun and if that doesn't work buy two more springs - another 13 and a 15 and see what happens. I've shot 4000 rounds in the last four months through the G34 that is set up for Production/SSP with the stock rod and 13# ISMI with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

If you are shooting a G35 maybe a 15 pounder. By the way on CGR web page he has an article called spring wars. Read it - you will find it interesting if you haven't read it already.

Rick

[Stuck in C]

My G34 has SS guide rod and captured ISMI 13 lbs spring (bought from Glockmeister). 2500+ rounds fired and no problems. With the 124 gr factory ammo I use (PF 130) it recoils like a .22. If its failing to feed, make sure you check the extractor. I've shot Glocks for a long time, and all the feeding problems I've had have been due to problem extractors.

[Flexmoney]

George, the reason that Flex asked about origin of the springs is that there were some problems with a batch of ISMI spring that were sold through Brownells.  They weren't tempered right and with compression they took a set which made them less effective and they would not return the gun to full battery as you described. 

Well...that isn't exactly right.

What Marc at ISMI told me was (if I recall correctly)...

Glock changed the width of their spring tunnel at some point. His original springs were made for the origianl Glock spring tunnel. Brownell's had a supply of these springs.

ISMI changed their spring diameter to work with the new Glocks (should work with the old ones too, right?). All was good. But, Brownell's still had a supply of the old springs. ISMI couldn't get them back from Brownell's.

That is the story as I know it. YMMV.

Regardless...

It is easy enough to check things out.

Stick the stock rod and spring back in the gun (unless you cut them up?).

Pull the slide back to a full stop. Note how far back it is.

Then, put the ISMI spring in. Repeat the test. See how far back the slide will travel. If the distance is shorter, you have some spring bind. Call ISMI. They will fix you up.

To see if you have some other issues...run this test with stock rod and spring, and then the replacements...

Take you unloaded gun (triple check). Dry-fire it AND hold the trigger all the way back to the rear...keep it there. Now, while keeping the trigger to the rear, tip the gun so that the muzzle is pointing straight up. Then, slowly hand cycle the slide. Ease it forward until it is about 1/4 inch from lock up about the point where the barrel starts to tip back into battery). With the trigger still pulled back and the muzzle straight up, now release the slide from the 1/4in point. It should go fully into battery by itself.

[driver8M3]

dumb question: are you sure the spring isnt broken? i had the exact problem with a 34 (tungsten rod) at a recent match. after the match i discovered that the spring had broken off an additional 2 coils (i had already cut 2 coils off). that was the 2nd ISMI spring that i've had break on me. the 1st one broke off 7 coils. when they break, they just wind themselves into the remaining spring.

ISMI sent me some replacement springs and i noticed that theyre different from the ones i had ordered from top glock. the ones from top glock had both ends "closed." the new ones from ISMI (just received a week ago) have one "closed" end...and one "open" end (where you can clearly see where the spring has been cut). the lengths of the 2 springs are the same, but the springs from top glock have more coils.

[Duane Thomas]

The G19, G23 are different, as are G26, G27.

According to Wolff Gunsprings, the G19, G23 and G32 all run as factory standard an 18-pound recoil spring. For the G26, G27 and G33 it's 16 pounds. And no, the fact the smaller guns have a lighter spring weight doesn't make sense to me, either.

[alma]

Any chance you were using new Glock brand 10 round magazines?

I stopped using them all together because when I have a full 10 round magazine I get death jams. There is so much pressure from the top round pushing on the bottom of the slide that it slows the slide down and it won’t feed right. This is with an ISMI 13lb and a 130 PF load.

[cginaz]

Hmmm...I'm experiencing exactly the same problem as GeorgeinNePa. I bought a captured SS rod with a 13lb recoil from Glockmeister for my G34. Mostly the gun cycles OK but sometimes it won't completely come back into battery without a little pressure being put on the back end of the slide.

When I do the test mentioned above by Flexmoney it just barely comes into battery. And..when the gun is cocked I can move the slide out of battery very easily with two fingers. It just feels like the spring is weak.

Incidently, I just shoot Winchester white box 115gr FJM in this gun.

I'd sure be interested to know why this set up seems to work on some G34's and not on others.

Charlie in Tucson

[Duane Thomas]

I run the ISMI 13-pound spring, but I just broke the retainer "knob" off the end of the stock polymer guide rod and run the spring on that. I've never had a problem. I'd be curious to know if your problem would go away if you replaced the after-market guide rod with stock polymer. It might be a guide rod problem, not a recoil spring problem.

[Flexmoney]

Did you guys do the slide travel test too?

[cginaz]

Flexmoney...

I tried the slide travel test. I found that the 13lb spring on the SS captured rod allows the slide to go back a little less than does the stock Glock spring set up. It's not much, maybe 1/8 inch. Maybe that's the problem if 1/8 inch is enough to make the difference. The rods are exactly the same length.

It does seem too like the slide moves much, much more easily with the lighter spring. It takes just a little bit of pressure to move it out of battery. I'm not sure what the standard spring weight is but with the replacement spring there is very little pressure keeping the gun in battery. Just doesn't feel right.

Charlie

[GeorgeInNePa]

Did you guys do the slide travel test too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flex,

Will try it out tonite. I haven't had a chance to touch the gun since posting the other day.

Alma,

I'm using the newest generation factory Hi-Caps, not 10rounders.

cginaz,

That's exactly what I'm experianceing here.

"Mostly the gun cycles OK but sometimes it won't completely come back into battery without a little pressure being put on the back end of the slide."

[GeorgeInNePa]

Ok, I tried the travel test and also let the slide down slowly on both the 34 and 35. The ISMI springs and aftermarket rods in both guns had less rearward travel and also not enough spring pressure to lock up the barrel. The 34 had about 3/16" less travel and the 35 was a touch more.

I am shooting both guns tomorrow, if the rain holds off. I put the stock springs and rods back in both guns. Guns that work are more important than a little less muzzle flip.

Now, what do I do with the aftermarket stuff?

[Flexmoney]

If the gun have less travel, that probably means you have spring bind.

Either the spring is too big on the outside to fit in the spring tunnel of the gun...or, the rod and spring are binding on the inside diameter of the spring (outside diameter of the rod).

I'll bet that, if you look at the springs, they show a slight "wave" in them...not a perfect coil.

Call ISMI and talk with them.

Also, I shoot my Glock 35 with a stock spring and rod...at Major power factor. Every so often, somebody asks me if I am shooting minor. I believe in techniques over equipment. Feel free to take a look at the video that shooter girl posted: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23173

(I hope that doesn't sound like I am too full of myself...just wanting to show an example)

[cginaz]

Flex,

Thanks for the tips. I shot using the stock spring and rod today and my gun runs fine. I think I'll stop worrying about springs and focus on technique. My gun shoots a lot better than I do in any case.

[Stuck in C]

My Glockmeister SS guide rod and ISMI 13 lbs spring passes the slide travel test perfectly, and I've never had a failure while shooting. I have a "D" serial number G34 (manufactured about 2000?). Has there been another spring tunnel change that causes spring binding in newer ones? Or has ISMI developed a QC problem? I've had great luck with ISMI springs.

I have noticed when manually cycling a round at LAMR sometimes the slide won't close all the way, and I have to shove it closed. Its never done this while shooting (2500+ rounds).

If I was doing it again I probably would just go with the stock setup-9mm doesn't recoil much anyway and its not worth causing failures.