Shoot Houses

[jkelly]

Freeidaho,

Again, you are mixing two seperate trains of thought.

Prior knowledge of a "blind" stage is a tremendous advantage. If it wasn't such an advantage then the SOs wouldn't work so hard to keep the stage "FAIR" by keeping them blind.

How well, or poorly, you manage your set up time does not alter that.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[COF]

jkelly, I've got to go with Ken on this one. I will agree with you that having prior knowledge of a blind stage does give an advantage, BUT like Ken said the folks who are interested in taking that advantage are rarely the folks who invest their time to set up and run matches. I ran a blind stage at the Midwest Spring Regional last year and was the last person to shoot the stage. I didn't shoot the stage as well as others because of the fatigue factor that Ken addressed.

I have yet to see the folks setting up a match with a blind stage take advantage of prior knowledge - yes, it could happen, but I haven't seen it.

Jerry

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I think blind stages are what IDPA should be all about. As someone once said: "Life has no walk through".

The shoot houses I have gone through with everything from trip wires to close no shoots have been some of the best stages I have ever been on. Knowing when to reload and when to pull a BUG is the most important part of those stages.

The advantage or disadvantage a designer or worker has is the benefit of the work they put in but that is not what the thread was about and maybe that should be another topic. If you really want more of an advantage, buy more raffle tickets.

I SO at matches after driving anywhere from 15 minutes to three hours and shoot like all others and then drive home. If I am tired, oh well at least I have a good time.

I have designed and set up stages as have many others who post here. Many work a lot harder than I do, I am sure.

How hard you or I work is not part of this discussion as I see it. How little others work makes no difference either.

There is an advantage to knowing and practicing the stages ahead of time. Do I care? Not really. What I would like to see is all IDPA matches be blind with no walk through but we all no that will never happen.

Regards,

[Bones]

Mr. Kelly,

I can, with first hand knowledge, respectfully tell you that you have, and are diseminating, incorrect information.

The blind stage at the S&W 2005 WNs was not dropped because one or any of the SOs had an advantage, percieved or practical.

There were several issues with that stage, but that one was not among them. In fact, the best time did not belong to an SO.

Before this gets inflamed, I would again point out that we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It was a rational question asked by someone new to the sport and without a knowledgeable appreciation for what practically exists. In practise few blind stages are run and a small percentage of those are successful. Rather than getting tied up in knots trying to plan for rare, "blind" stages, new shooters should concentrate thier improvement efforts elsewhere.

As a fellow competitor and SO, I share my good friend RGSs dream and dissapointment with blind stages.

Best Regards,

Craig

[pisgahrifle]

Since I got this ball rolling, i'll make a few comments.

The ROs at the IDPA club I USED to shoot at shot the stages first or last, their choice. Thus they not only had knowledge of the stage design before the fact, they got to shoot them fresh. For the state match, the ROs got to shoot the stages days beforehand. I'm sorry, but if ROs are going to shoot, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander- fair is fair. For the record this was remedied for the state match last year. They got some very good volunteer ROs, many very good friends of mine, who made mention of this contradiction and saw it remedied.

I appreciate the efforts that ROs put into the matches, as i'm sure we all do. But this is a competition, and an unfair advantage is just that. It should also be noted that not always are ROs going without compensation. Oftentimes MDs pay some ROs while insisting that everyone is a volunteer to others. It's not necessarilly in the "spirit of the game," but it's legal and it's happening every day. IDPA is, after all, a business, right? That's why it's important that clubs are run democratically and have transparency to the membership in where money is going.

And while I'm still a dues-paying member of IDPA, and have been for three years, I'm going over to USPSA in January for the Single Stack Provisional class. Blind stages are one of many myriad reasons for this, so I'm hoping that USPSA doesn't jump on this bandwagon.

And no, Ken, I don't shoot at your club.

[Bones]

Why don't we discuss something less contoversial like religion, ESR power factor or gay marriage?

Craig

[jkelly]

Mr. Kelly,

I can, with first hand knowledge, respectfully tell you that you have, and are diseminating, incorrect information.

The blind stage at the S&W 2005 WNs was not dropped because one or any of the SOs had an advantage, percieved or practical.

Mr. Buckland,

At least I believe that it is Mr. Buckland. If you will reread my post you will see that I never said that the blind stage at the S&W 2005 WNs was dropped because an SO had an advantage. Therefore YOU are diseminating incorrect information, not I.

What I said was:

If it wasn't an advantage, then they wouldn't drop compromised stages, as they did at the last S&W Winter Nationals.

The "it" refered to in my above quote is referencing shooting a "blind" stage with prior knowledge. It (I) made no reference to the shooters status as an SO.

It is my belief that the blind stage at the S&W WNs was dropped because someone had prior knowlege. That's what I was told at the time, by an SO (maybe you?).

Am I incorrect in this?

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Why don't we discuss something less contoversial like religion, ESR power factor or gay marriage?

Craig

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can tell your from MA

(I couldn't resist)

Regards,

G

[Bones]

Jim,

You are correct sir and I apologize.

I misread and misinterpreted your post.

It was the right call to remove it from the match. We knew it was a risk and the MD was generous to let us try it. Next time we'll yield to his wisdom. It worked out as well as it could have in the end.

They (blind stages) work O.K. at club matches but not at a Nat'l level. The competitive pressures are significant - more than a few people's sense of fair play can resist. You only need (1) to yield and the stage is dead.

Jim, once again, please accept my apology.

I hope you'll join us the HGC (the site of the CT State Championships in October) on 4 Jun for our 1st outdoor club match:

http://www.downzero.com/Docs/CSS%20April%202005%20Update.htm

There will NOT be a blind stage at this match - we have other, much more devious plans in mind....

Now, how do you feel about gay marriage? (just joking and not a proposition) -

Mr. Buckland

[jkelly]

Craig,

Thank you for the apology, I'm looking forward to shooting with you again! I offer my apology to you also as I could have pointed out our error in a different way.

I'll try to get to Hartford for the 4 June match.

Respectfully,

John Kelly

[Mayonaise]

Since I got this ball rolling, i'll make a few comments.

The ROs at the IDPA club I USED to shoot at shot the stages first or last, their choice. Thus they not only had knowledge of the stage design before the fact, they got to shoot them fresh. For the state match, the ROs got to shoot the stages days beforehand. I'm sorry, but if ROs are going to shoot, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander- fair is fair. For the record this was remedied for the state match last year. They got some very good volunteer ROs, many very good friends of mine, who made mention of this contradiction and saw it remedied.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With all due respect, you cannot expect people to SO a match and not be able to shoot it. If you ever SO'd a major match you'd probably realize that the SO's usually sacrifice their performance for the work involved in setting up and running the match. Shooting the match fresh? Hardly. Most of us rarely shoot as well as we would being just shooters. The SO's are the guinea pigs in shaking out issues with stages. That's part of the deal. And that rarely works out to their advantage.

The simple solution if you think the SO's have such an advantage is to volunteer and SO the match.

Mayo

[pisgahrifle]

Did I ever say that I didn't want to allow the SOs to shoot the match? I'm arguing against blind stages here, not SOs shooting the match.

Furthermore, all this still doesn't answer to why SOs who knew the blind stages shot better on them than other shooters - and that, Mayo, is the point. It's patently unfair, and just saying "they set up the match, they deserve it" doesn't make it right. Would you say that an SO could run a 10 rnd mag in CDP because he worked the match and deserved it? Is it permissable, then, for MDs to make up rules for side matches that obviously favor equipment being used by the range staff because they set up the match? While the former example is hypothetical, the latter is not- I know that it's happening at least one IDPA club. The justification for all of this is theoretically the same. While i appreciate the work range staff does, they deserve no special priveleges or compensation within the match itself. Maybe I'm just a levelin' commie fool, but fair is fair.

And if I'm arguing that the SOs have the advantage, and I had the chance to SO a match with a blind stage where I would have the advantage over other shooters that hadn't and couldn't see the stages, why would I want to take part? Didn't Aurelius admonish us not to do anything that would make us act the hypocrite? Sorry, not big on selling myself out. I'll SO a match where everyone can see what's going on, but secret information that affects others, in private or public life, just ain't kosher.

[Flexmoney]

The thread started out with question on how to shoot a blind stage.

We are well past that now.

Life is too short...this thread is too long.

Closed.