Open

[Irishlad]

As a beginner "looking from the outside in" and only having shot an open gun once, I have to ask a couple of questions about the debate going on about the 9mm major. I posted them down here since a lack of knowledge can be dangerous and irritating to seasoned shooters. I am sure these have been 'beat to death' already...but!

Why wouldn't the the organization simply lower the power factor?

As I was told and read, the power factor was designed to insure realistic loads out of unmodified guns for self defense training, and for fun of course!

The open guns barely "jump" with power loads now, at least with the one I shot and have observed. It seems to be an awful lot of work to load up various calibers and then add devices to reduce the recoil, especially for a gun that has no pretensions of being "practical".

If it's a pure shooting sport for fun and competition, which is reason enough, why not just make it easier, cheaper and safer for new shooters to become involved?

Competitors would still use all  the "stuff" on their guns, since it's open division, guns would jump even less... so what!!

We had a friendly discussion like this at the gun club and the open shooters response was basically, "That's what production division is for". Maybe their right!

Implied but not stated, I think the existing competitors have time and money invested in existing equipment and would be reluctant to change. I can understand that, but there appear to be fewer and fewer of them. Tough one !!

What do you think?

Take care.

[BrianH]

The short answer, Lad, is that Jeff Cooper disigned the IPSC criteria to specifically EXCLUDE the 9mm, because he thought it was a worthless fighting cartridge.  The power factor was set at 170 to keep it to .45 ACP (and a 10mm could play if you were one of the 12 guys who got a Bren Ten with a magazine), then they upped the pf to 175 to try to keep the .38 Super from playing, not realizing that we're more interested in shooting what we want instead of relying on the stopping power of factory ammunition.

Bottom line is...this "game" is not about fighting any more than top-fuel drag racing is about driving to work.  The power factor is mostly silly, because we've banned the cartridges that we feel won't be safe at full power.  Major 9 was banned because a few "ammunition experts" started screaming about how far over "industry standard" the pressures were, and USPSA capitulated, probably to avoid getting sued.  Ask the people who shot Major 9....Mike Voigt, TGO, pretty much all the top shooters were shooting it or something similiar for a brief period.

I lied...that wasn't really a short answer.....

[Irishlad]

Thanks for the reply.

That was interesting.

Take care

[parsonm1]

"Bottom line is...this "game" is not about fighting any more than top-fuel drag racing is about driving to work."

Now a days the "game" is not so much about fighting. But during the inception of IPSC, the idea was to get people to shoot somewhat realistic scenarios and skill development drills with firearms that, at that time, were considered the premier fighting firearms. The power factor was based upon the standard 230 gr. military ball ammo. A standard had to be set to level the playing field (and most of the founders liked 45 acp).  Otherwise you would see .22s competing nest to the centerfires (more people are wounded and killed by .22s than any other caliber). Ammo development has changed the reality of what ammo is practical and the IDPA has changed their rules to reflect that...and no, I am not a member of IDPA.

Only when the "gamers" came along did the perspective become more about what it takes to win and less about practical skills and firearms. And if the goal is to get to work as fast as you can, regardless of cost of the car, and assuming that you work less than 1/2 mile straight away from where you work, I think a dragster might be fun!!

[BrianH]

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And if the goal is to get to work as fast as you can, regardless of cost of the car, and assuming that you work less than 1/2 mile straight away from where you work, I think a dragster might be fun!!

---

....but not practical, and nobody does it, that's my point.

Anybody shooting 230 gr. ball in IPSC today either got it for free (or cheap) or has something to prove.  The latter belongs in IDPA.

If someone doesn't like "gaming" in IPSC has primarily one man to blame, but I don't think anyone wants to do that....

[warpspeed]

My 2 pennies....

Open should mean Open. no restrictions on equipment. period

If they just scored it all major like they score all production minor, all this would go away. Let's face it, we shoot open because we like (or need) a dot  scope.  The rest  just goes along with it.

My idea, for what it's worth, is make Open major only with a major only floor of whatever is safe and put the whole thing to bed. If you show up and the ammo is  less, you get DQ'd,  isn't that what happens in Production?  

As for 9mm being allowed,  just lower the pf for Open to 150 and  be done with it.  

And let the  gaming begin!!!  

[Detlef]

As of a few days ago, 9mm Para major is allowed again per USPSA.

--Detlef

[Shooter Grrl]

Interesting thoughts Warp... but some of us old timers really believe in DVC.

'sides, my gun won't run at 150 ;p

[Carlos]

IrishLad - welcome and thanks for asking. Where do you shoot?

BrianH - thanks for saying it out loud. Let the Cooper crowd go play in L10 or the IDPA classes for 1911s; reality is that other designs besides the .45 1911 now exist - some people even believe that the gun industry might just have made an improvement or two in handgun design since the turn of the century (the 1900 turn, not the Y2k turn mind you).

D.

Your milage may vary. Top experts do NOT agree . . .

(Edited by Carlos at 11:55 am on Nov. 19, 2002)

[Irishlad]

Carlos,

Hello- I shoot a 1911 45 casually right now and was debating/deciding on whether to "get into" a handgun sport like IPSC or IDPA when time permits.

Open probably is not for me but it does look fun. Certainly, the discussions are interesting!!

Thanks and take care.

[Carlos]

I took a long time before taking the plunge into shooting IPSC - it seemed intimidating and that was starting w/ a glock! Nothing to be intimidated about however; I now look at USPSA a bit like a round of golf:  enjoyable time outdoors on the weekend w/ friends doing something I like - shooting. I know I'll never beat Tiger Woods; won't even come close. I may be a better golfer than the week before - but that matters to other people not at all.

With shooting, IPSC will provide a personal challenge to you: can I transition from target to target faster? Can I get the gun off the table quicker? Can I get both of those A-zone hits at 25 yards, 35, more? How will I deal with a stage I have never seen nor practiced before?

If improving your overall handgunning skill is important to you, give IPSC a try. Alternatively, try out IDPA - I personally don't shoot IDPA, but in the end, it all adds up to trigger time and that can make the difference in your skill. Same goes for GSSF, steel, and to the extent it still exists, pins (I started out as a pin shooter). What are your plans for this weekend?

[Irishlad]

Carlos,

Hello and thanks for the tips. I have the same philosophy on shooting and I agree with you. I think when time permits, L-10, would be the best for me.

I am lazy on equipment(not shooting) and would not have the patience or inclination to fool with open/limited guns, calibers, mags, etc.

Steel and pins looks interesting also.

Thanks again

[ddg81sniper]

new question by the beginner. I am new to this site, are all topics dealling with hand gun only and not rifle???

[Flexmoney]

In general, the forum deals with action shooting sports.  Mostly pistol, but lot of good info for rifle can be found as well. (lots under "3-gun")