Jerry's Reloads

[MrBorland]

The record isn't the reaction, it's the splits and reload.

I understand - but then "the record" is 11 shots, not 12.

Subtracting out the reaction time is fine, except that the reaction shot isn't subtracted out when the run are marketed. Fuzzy math.

His exact quote (starting at 1:10) "Total time was a 4.88. First shot was an .87. So, that was actually 4 seconds for 16 rounds on target." eh...no...it's 15 rounds in 4 seconds.

Edited August 19, 2015 by GrandBoule

[peterthefish]

No, it's 16. Assume that he started aiming at the target, and rather than him starting on the beep, the timer started on his first shot.

As others have said, the R/T to the first time is immaterial, capture .00001 before his first shot to his last and that's his time.

[peterthefish]

Thanks guys for the kind words!! JW works really hard on his reloads and does in fact shoot matches. He has received some great instruction and advice from awesome shooters here in Texas. Here is a video of one stage at his latest match a few weeks ago. Feel free to critique... He needs all the help he can get. [emoji3]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=16SWn_xZFRQ

I would draw on the beep so I could start shooting once I got in position. Other than that, time and milk will handle the rest.

Get him skills and drills by Stoeger and make sure there's some dry fire that replicates a match - getting into / leaving positions quickly.

Edited August 19, 2015 by peterthefish

[MrBorland]

How I see it: A runner wants to run the 100 yard dash without their reaction time being a factor. So, at the gun, they start at the starting line, but the timer doesn't start until they hit the 10-yard mark. Fine, but they covered 90 yards during the timed period, not 100. If they wanted a true 100 yard no-reaction time, they'd have to start behind the line, and start the timer when they cross the starting line.

[Bubber]

When the records were first recorded, Ed Mcgiveren (sp) the stop watch, you remember those don't you. was connected to the trigger to take the timers reaction time away from the equation. just to keep it even to level with the first record. Now the timers can record in 100ths of a second and the stop watch is accurate to within 1/20th of a second. If all use the same criteria it makes little or no difference.

[MWP]

How I see it: A runner wants to run the 100 yard dash without their reaction time being a factor. So, at the gun, they start at the starting line, but the timer doesn't start until they hit the 10-yard mark. Fine, but they covered 90 yards during the timed period, not 100. If they wanted a true 100 yard no-reaction time, they'd have to start behind the line, and start the timer when they cross the starting line.

I think the idea in this analogy would be that the timer is under the blocks, and when the weight is released it starts.

[seanc]

Thanks guys for the kind words!! JW works really hard on his reloads and does in fact shoot matches. He has received some great instruction and advice from awesome shooters here in Texas. Here is a video of one stage at his latest match a few weeks ago. Feel free to critique... He needs all the help he can get.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=16SWn_xZFRQ

he appears to be safer than most adults.

When he puts on another 20 or 30 lbs of bodyweight and the strength that goes with it he is going to be a terror...

[Forrest Halley]

Jerry isn't doing funny math, he's subtracting the time between the beep and first shot. The record isn't the reaction, it's the splits and reload.

A draw with reload and 12 is possible, with an open or limited gun, but only for a handful of people. I think Max's time was extremely close to that at the second reload when he shot his 18 rounds into 3 targets.

Adding a draw time to JMs 6+6 would put him closer to 3.75-3.8 seconds.

Why does this need to be said? Why can't the reaction be included? When I think of how fast it takes me to do something I don't subtract my reaction time. They don't subtract my reaction time at the match. I'm sorry, but I just don't follow how this is a valid action to subtract the reaction time. I'm with Tom on this one...11 and 15, not 12 and 16.

With respect to McGivern's records, they were on the equipment of the era which had no ability to hear the shots. Now that we have the ability to hear the shots in our timers...let's use that method instead and respect the former method for what it was.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Forrest Halley

[seanc]

Jerry isn't doing funny math, he's subtracting the time between the beep and first shot. The record isn't the reaction, it's the splits and reload.

A draw with reload and 12 is possible, with an open or limited gun, but only for a handful of people. I think Max's time was extremely close to that at the second reload when he shot his 18 rounds into 3 targets.

Adding a draw time to JMs 6+6 would put him closer to 3.75-3.8 seconds.

Why does this need to be said? Why can't the reaction be included? When I think of how fast it takes me to do something I don't subtract my reaction time. They don't subtract my reaction time at the match. I'm sorry, but I just don't follow how this is a valid action to subtract the reaction time. I'm with Tom on this one...11 and 15, not 12 and 16.

With respect to McGivern's records, they were on the equipment of the era which had no ability to hear the shots. Now that we have the ability to hear the shots in our timers...let's use that method instead and respect the former method for what it was.

Guinness, who certifies the actual records, disagrees with you.

[mikeAZ]

No matter, WAY faster than me on my BEST day!!!!

[MrBorland]

How I see it: A runner wants to run the 100 yard dash without their reaction time being a factor. So, at the gun, they start at the starting line, but the timer doesn't start until they hit the 10-yard mark. Fine, but they covered 90 yards during the timed period, not 100. If they wanted a true 100 yard no-reaction time, they'd have to start behind the line, and start the timer when they cross the starting line.

I think the idea in this analogy would be that the timer is under the blocks, and when the weight is released it starts.

What you're describing is reaction time - the time between the beep and the beginning of your action. That's not what JM does, though. If you review the vid, you'll see the first shot is at 0.87. Subtracting this out from the total subtracts the time from the beep up to and including the first shot. A reaction time of 0.87 is nearly comatose; a true reaction time is closer to 0.1something.

Honestly, I'd be ok with or without including the 1st shot; but call it for what it is...15 in 4 or 16 in 4+.

Edited August 19, 2015 by GrandBoule

[MrBorland]

When the records were first recorded, Ed Mcgiveren (sp) the stop watch, you remember those don't you. was connected to the trigger to take the timers reaction time away from the equation. just to keep it even to level with the first record. Now the timers can record in 100ths of a second and the stop watch is accurate to within 1/20th of a second. If all use the same criteria it makes little or no difference.

This makes sense - it's done to keep everything consistent.

I'm not clear on how McGivern's system worked, though. If time to the start of the 1st trigger pull is subtracted, McGivern's true reaction time was subtracted, in which case, the same criteria isn't being applied.

[Shadowrider]

He is stating in his video "total time on target". So subtracting out the .87 essentially starts the timer at the 1st shot which is the same as the timer under the blocks posted above, therefore the 1st shot is included however he is excluding the time to obtain a sight picture. I don't know of any other way he would do it given the equipment he has. I've never seen in any of his videos that he's being disingenuous, he just seems to be really analytical on splits, transitions and reloads.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Shadowrider