Participation.....

[hopalong]

8SHOOTER

I feel your PAIN !!!

[Bones]

Here's what one of the 34 SSR shooters in the 05WC thinks:

1) There will not be a mass exodus of revolver shooters from IDPA - IPSC can have the vocal minority fleeing ESR. Few will actually leave long term - they might hold their breath and stamp their feet for a while, but where else do they really have to go?

2) SSR will grow faster than it would have if ESR were never born, especially among new members.

3) This is why IDPA succeeds w/revolver shooters and will continue to do so:

low start-up costs

small, local, mid-week venues

revolver neutral stage designs

18 rd COF limit

active revolver shooters at the local level

IPSC falls down at each juncture.

I use IPSC strictly to practice reloads.

Craig

[underlug]

Bones: I think this is a very thoughtful analysis. My individual case is different. I had purchased a 4" 625 for use as a backup USPSA gun, but, more specifically, for use in IDPA which I just joined in November. Before I could shoot a match, the new rules came out. Between the holster rules disqualifying equipment, and the new classes of revolver, which bifurcate a small number of shooters, and the high handed manner which the rules were promulgated, I vowed never to darken IDPA's door. I sold the 4" for a 25-2 and have not looked back. They wouldn't give me my dues back, cheap bastards, so, I may shoot a match or two out of spite with another gun if I'm caught short on match time. There will be no love in my heart for the IDPA Gods, though.

[Bones]

underlug,

Sorry it worked out that way for you. I am not asking this cynically but if you feel that bifurcating a small division is a problem, is leaving a rational positive response?

Frankly, I don't care who get's my $35/yr, be it a non-profit or a for-profit entity. In the end, the local club/area dynamics are what matter. I guess I'm lucky - we have a dynamic and involved (and somewhat evangelical) local revolver community.

Are the new rules perfect? - No (but I do like ESR, in fact - I LOVE it)

Was the rules amendment process perfect? - No - not even close

Does IPDA fit my needs better than IPSC - Definately

I hope you change your mind (and shoot SSR) -

Craig

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Why can't USPSA draw more revolver shooters (let's keep it nice  )

IS it that USPSA shooting with all the shots in the stages intimidate revolver shooters?

Is it that USPSA shooting is not normally "revolver friendly"?  (A Crock IMHO) Revos shoot against Revos 

Is it that USPSA is a game that has EVOLVED away from revolver as being a viable platform to use?    Naaaahhhhh

What's up could someone explain this to me....?????.....

What am I not seeing?

I shoot both but if I had to settle for one it would definately be USPSA without any hesitation at all......

Hopalong / Sam Keen  the guy who just doesn't understand 

Well Hop, I have looked at this thread long and hard. I have tried to give it some serious thought.

I am a revolver shooter and have been since 1973. Do I shoot only revolvers? No, I like all types of hand guns.

I was an IDPA SSR shooter for several years. It was a natural thing for me to do and I really enjoyed it. I have used speed loaders since the early times when the Kellite rubber loaders so speed loaders are nothing new to me. I used my speed loader gun in IDPA for a while but I wanted more. I wanted to shoot more too and the speed loader gun was not a good fit for any sport other than IDPA. I upgraded. Started with a 610, then a 625. Really liked the guns and they worked well for SSR and for USPSA. Then cam the rule changes. Power factor was not a big deal but the way the rules were change was to me.

Many IDPA shooters can not make USPSA power factor with their IDPA gear. I saw a master class IDPA shooter travel to AWARE a couple years ago only to get DQ'd for not making minor with factory loads.

I think this is a main reason there is not much of a crossover. If they have to compete in minor power factor, it puts them at a disadvantage.

Many will give other reasons and some will try to be flip about it. Some can proclaim themselves the IDPA SSR cheer leaders and poke fun at those that disagree with snide comments. The truth is, we are all entitled to our opinions. Trying to degrade another for an opinion is the sign of a small man.

It all comes down to what are you out there for? If you are out to shoot and think and make yourself improve skill wise, the higher the round count the better. If you look at the top IDPA shooters, you will most likely be looking at those that started in USPSA. The more you shoot, the better you get.

Regards,

Gary

Edited March 12, 2005 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[michaels]

Just got back from a local match (uspsa), out of the 34 shooters, it was me and one new shooter with revolvers....the last 3 months, it's just been me, now I've got one more coming out...I've had 5 or 6 other shooters comment on they would like to try shooting a revolver, but didn't know how to go about it, what type of stuff do you need and how do you attack a stage, etc. It just takes a little talking to the bottom feeders and before long they will see the light (through an empty cylinder)....

Of course, converting them may make it harder to be #1 in your class if you're not the only one packing a 6 shooter....

A couple people who picked up brass and mags (what about speedloaders/moonclips RO?) wanted to know where you buy 45 ammo with the metal ring holding them together....

What it boils down to is EDUCATION....I let these guys fondle my 625 in the safety area at lunch, let them try some draws and before long they'll be adding a revolver to their gunsafe....

After all, don't all Glocks look a like? But show somebody a 629 and they think Dirty Harry all the way...

As Dan Carden pointed out, bring on the targets, I've got enough moons loaded...

michael sousa

[Waltermitty]

I'll throw in two pennies and give this topic a bump.

All points made above are salient and well thought out. Shooting a handgun well is very hard. Shooting a revolver well is the hardest among all other types. It takes a special kind of person to make the committment of sweat, blood and treasure to play the game without recognition or external reward. This will ensure very small numbers of us in a mixed equipment environment.

What could be done about it?

In my view it would take remarkable individual action over 3-5 years to elevate Revolver Division to a Marquee division. What sorts of action would it take?

First, realize that at headquarters level neither USPSA or IPSC has any economic incentive whatsoever to promote Revolver Division. Below that, the Areas and the Sections follow suit. For the organizations, this is strictly an economic problem. The organizations will not promote us until after there are enough numbers to provide them with an economic incentive.

From a purely business standpoint, only the revolver manufacturers would have a potential interest in promoting the division. Right now, S&W owns USPSA revolver division pure and simple. Only they, and perhaps a competitor looking to expand their markets could be motivated to make something happen.

Product has been pulled through competition before (SASS) and manufacturers have created competetive venues to pull their products (GSSF)through to market. However, USPSA competition is dominated by 2-3 relatively small gunmakers that can make a living on the numbers available in the sport. As a sport USPSA does not have the mass-market appeal required to attract serious attention from one of the major manufacturers.

If a motivated group of individuals could put together a plan to ensure that the top three Revolver Division finishers in all Area and above matches were awarded an important prize (like another revolver) I think interest from talented competitors would increase and thereby pull more attention and more participants into the division.

I am not in the firearm manufacturing business so my analysis is weak because I do not know the scale needed to interest a manufacturer into sponsorship. I am puzzled as to why S&W hasn't already executed a similar program through Jerry M. They certainly wouldn't harm any of their other business in USPSA, yet they don't seem to be very committed to growing the division they own.

So who among us is prepared to take on this Sales & Promotion challenge?

[Chuck D]

I started out as a wheelgun guy in IPSC competition in the mid-eighties having come from a PPC background. A good 2/3 years of using a 4 inch model 66. IPSC played a secondary role for me until the local NRA Action Pistol program ceased to exist due to match attendance. For the better part of my "early years" of shooting competitively...I used a wheelgun.

One thing kills wheelgun participation in IPSC...the NUMBER of rounds from a shooting position. Be it 8 or 9 max from a position...it creates a TON of dead standing reloads. When your stuck doing this, you don't get a chance to "run and gun" like the bottomfeeers do. It takes away from the "fun factor" just a little bit. For the diehard revolver shooter...this is no big deal. For the casual wheelgun shooter, they eventually get worn down by the other shooters and end up buying guns (bottomfeeders) that don't require a ton of dead standing reloads and the revolver either goes back in the safe or up for sale.

If USPSA and/or IPSC were SERIOUS about increasing revolver division participation, they would address the "rounds per array" requirement and encourage revolver friendly (not necessarily neutral but friendly) course design. In all reality, to think like this is dangerous because once you mention it in a serious tone...you get all sorts coming out of the woodwork shouting you down over effecting unwanted changes in THEIR sport.

IDPA has done a good job of welcoming revolver shooters so obviously IDPA is where the revo. guys/gals go.

Edited May 1, 2005 by Chuck D

[Carmoney]

Chuck, that may have been true a couple years back, but many of the best revolver shooters in the country have quit shooting IDPA, never started in the first place, or just shoot IDPA casually for something to do on non-match weekends.

Even putting aside for purposes of this conversation the whole SSR/ESR debacle that has severely damaged morale among the IDPA wheelgunners (who were still a small minority in that game), it should be remembered that nothing sends shivers up a true revolver shooter's spine quite like starting a challenging 32-round long IPSC/USPSA assault course--and knowing you have to be thinking three times harder than the Open/Limited guys just to get through the course! It's really cool!

On the other hand, nothing throws cold water on a true revolver competitor than to be at an IDPA match and be told you have to do a "tactical reload", a concept which is of dubious value with autopistols, and which is completely stupid as IDPA applies to revolvers ("stuff the whole mess in a pocket..."). Yuck.

Most of the best revolver shooters out there today are focused on IPSC.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

[Chuck D]

Carmoney, your right..."nothing sends shivers up a true revolver shooters spine..."

That's the problem . A true revolver shooter wouldn't care what they had to do as long as they had/have an opportunity to do it. Unfortunately, not everyone ...regardless of Divison are "truly committed" to the cause. It's not a ton of fun to do 500% more dead standing reloads than a bottomfeeder guy/gal for the average revolver owner/shooter. In order to get more of them involved, that aspect of the game must change.

As for IDPA...I'm concerned simply with numbers. It doesn't make a great deal of difference to me how many of the best revolver shooters shoot IDPA's SSR/ESR divisions. Participatory numbers overall for IDPA SSR/ESR divisions are leaps and bounds better than IPSC/USPSA Revolver Division numbers.

By the way...I think it's great to see your son in Front Sight shooting IPSC with his Dad. Brings back many fond memories.

[hopalong]

Waltermitty,

Welcome, thanks for the input.... All is welcome and needed.

a small bit of information for ya'll to see it from my angle....

I shot Limited for 3 years before picking up a Revolver, So I was already an IPSC/USPSA shooter for 2 years before even shooting my first IDPA match.

I have enjoyed IDPA, have met some good folks and am glad to have done it but USPSA gets the nod, (more of a shooting challenge for me).

when I hit A class Limited I traded it in (gun safe) for the Revolver and just wanted to get it up to par with the flat side.... Now I have gone way past the goals I orginally set with the round gun and still have not put it away.

If I remember correctly there are less than 10 revolver masters in USPSA that actually have an 85% or better average, So if I can make that class that would put me in a pretty elite group so that is now on the list of goals that originally was not there. now you can see where I started and hopefully will end up.

WalterMitty, I agree it will take the effort of a few to make USPSA revolver even as popular as IDPA revolver. Thankfully Jerry Miculek was a USPSA shooter before he started IDPA so we (USPSA revolver shooters) can claim his glory!!!

If you have seen on some of the other Threads, I am working on trying to get a large USPSA style match organized and call it the Southern Revolver Championships or something like that..... I have the dedication to get this on the ground and will do that but it will be a class act..... not just another shoot to be forgotten in a week.

I have been given a few names in the Industry to talk to and intend to do so when I am able to given my current occupational duties. So this is not forgotten, just on simmer for a while, could use some help though at a later time.

Now back on the subject, from talking with the other revolver shooters in my neck of the woods (who by the way all shoot IDPA) their biggest reason they say they don't shoot USPSA with or without their revolvers is that they only have enough time to get in an Ocassionall IDPA match, and that is what they started shooting in so they are more Comfortable with it.

Maybe one day..........

SAM

Again thanks for all the input and info.... It will be put to good use.

[MikeFoley]

OK, I am probably overstating the obvious once again, but there are good revolver shooters out there who seldom shoot revolver. This became apparent to me at Zookeeper's ICORE match where Vikings501 took to the wheel like a champ after not touching one for a year. I shoot it 10 times per year, and didn't do too bad either. Shooting is shooting, if you are good at USPSA shooting truly good shooters can shoot any type of gun you put in their hand. Though I am not that good, I can switch between my STI widebody, my singlestack, my Glocks, my revolver, and even an open gun last week and place about the same. My long gun skills are right on the same plane too. My point is that with so much to chose from, it takes an enthusiast to choose the wheelgun exclusively. Even Jerry M. dumps it for a bottomfeeder racegun in 3gun.

Too many choices, or not enough different games? I saw a lot of open, limited, and production shooters at that ICORE match "having fun with a wheel gun". There's your free marketing slogan. If there were 5 nationals, like that will ever happen, then you would see a lot more revolver shooters, providing they weren't shooting an area match or a 3gun tournament that weekend. Think about it like this, there are 52 weekends in a year. Take away holidays and family obligations, and most of us can still get 48 matches in. Now if you hunt or fish or both, then take away a few more. I didn't mention motorcycles, racecars, etc., but you get the idea. Now look into your gunsafe and think of all of those guns you like to shoot, even the .22s and shotguns and ARs. It boils down to what you like best, and what you choose to do. A lot of us like to compete against others with similar equipment, and that alone makes Limited and Open feed themselves.

My thought is that if there was a game as fun as USPSA for revovlers only, and it had the infrastructure to put on regular and frequent matches, then I imagine there wouldn't be any USPSA revolver shooters anymore, but then you would still be competing with USPSA and the other divisions.

[Carmoney]

Participatory numbers overall for IDPA SSR/ESR divisions are leaps and bounds better than IPSC/USPSA Revolver Division numbers. 

By the way...I think it's great to see your son in Front Sight shooting IPSC with his Dad. Brings back many fond memories. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for those nice comments, Chuck. Sam and I are heading out to Colorado this weekend to shoot our first ICORE match--we're sure looking forward to it!

I understand your point on the raw numbers. Hopalong started out this whole conversation by pointing out how few shooters you get at the USPSA matches. Out of 300+ shooters at the Florida Open, one of the biggest USPSA matches of the year, only 9 of us shot wheelguns (most of us contributors to this sub-forum, in fact....) In some areas of the country, they get more than 9 revo shooters showing up for local IDPA matches.

I agree that to spur on more interest in USPSA Revolver it would sure help to have intelligent and inventive course design--it is SO typical now to see long courses with one 8-round array after another after another. Nice for L-10 and single-stackers, sorta sucks for Revolver (unless you're a total diehard wacko). But it's a vicious circle, because if enough wheelgunners show up and shoot, we can shoot against each other and then it doesn't matter......you know what I mean.

[Carmoney]

OK, I am probably overstating the obvious once again, but there are good revolver shooters out there who seldom shoot revolver . . . Even Jerry M. dumps it for a bottomfeeder racegun in 3gun. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, and it works both ways.....most good revolver shooters are also good with the other guns also. I enjoy shooting the bottom-feeders (especially single-stack 1911s) myself! The most dedicated wheelgunner I know might be our own D.Carden--he's an A-class revolver guy who doesn't even own any auto-pistols. (Not many of us can say that!) Still, I'll betcha he could pick up a decent 1911 or Glock, practice with it for a week, and have no trouble competing at roughly the same class level at his next IPSC match.

[MikeFoley]

Total diehard wacko...I have someone in mind, Zookeeper are you out there?

[Waltermitty]

Waltermitty,

[edit]

If you have seen on some of the other Threads, I am working on trying to get a large USPSA style match organized and call it the Southern Revolver Championships or something like that.....  I have the dedication to get this on the ground and will do that but it will be a class act..... not just another shoot to be forgotten in a week.

[edit]

I have been given a few names in the Industry to talk to and intend to do so when I am able to given my current occupational duties. So this is not forgotten, just on simmer for a while, could use some help though at a later time.

Maybe one day..........

SAM

Again thanks for all the input and info.... It will be put to good use.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen the thread and applaud the effort. Time is a constraint for all of us. My concern on a "Revolver Championship" in USPSA is it wouldn't be sanctioned if it didn't follow the rules and recognize all divisions. This would tend to mitigate the distinction. The idea interests me of course, but it will be in competition with several other matches and would be a tremendous amount of work.

Is it possible that one of the current match organizers would agree to help promote the division if you (we) brought our own sponsors to offset the expense of the promotions? (prizes, awards, etc.) If a few major match organizers would go along, it seems the net workload would be much less because we would be tagging on to an already existing match. (no need to plan toilet paper, hot dogs and first aid) Who would have a serious objection to some group of wheelgunners promoting their match in exchange for a "Revolvers Only" prize and trophy table? If we sponsor (and design) a couple of stages could we ensure they were "Revolver Happy"?

Maybe USPSA would let us have a column in Front Sight for revolver issues? There are at least a couple of decent columns in this forum already.

Just crazy talking out loud....

[D.carden]

Hey all,

Mike, thanks for the comments, I hope WE all can find a way to bring in more revo's at every level of the game. Maybe someday I'll buy an auto but I just seem to gravitate towards revolvers, always have!!

We've had some high-rd-count stages at our club level lately (45), lot'sa reloads.

Makes everything else seem easy(er).

I know that can discourage some revo shooters, but thats just part of the game, and I enjoy it.

Anyway, Mike, enjoy your ICORE match and I'll see in a few weeks.

Dan

[Carmoney]

Hey Dan, sounds like they've got 5 wheelguns signed up for the Iowa Sectional. That's not a lot, but it'll be enough to make it fun! I asked Chad to squad us all together. See you then,

Mike

[hopalong]

WalterMitty,

The current thinking in my mind is that we have a USPSA "style" match with USPSA rules verbatum except there be an open revolver division for two reasons.

1 get more participation from those who not only shoot ICORE with a open gun but the 8 shooters that are out there too...

2 show USPSA that there are enough open revolver shooters to support an open revolver sub division(hopefully) IE. keep revolver division just have an open and a std. sub division.

I like the idea of getting with an already planned match and trying to get revos "concentrated" maybe someone can try it out, I will keep kicking the complete revolver match until I get it worked out.

Thanks again

SAM

[8shooter]

1 get more participation from those who not only shoot ICORE with a open gun but the 8 shooters that are out there too...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like me Sam.......

I have found especially with IPSC, if you have open and limited divisions with autos, you are always going to get a stronger attendance of open shooters. Why wouldn't it be the same with a revolver. We have found that when we started our ICORE club the majority previously were limited revolver shooters in IPSC and IDPA because there wasn't an open division available. Now the majority shoot in open revolver division in ICORE because there is one, and don't shoot IPSC or IDPA at all anymore.

I would consider myself a "Die Hard" revolver shooter, like Dan, I for a long time didn't own an auto, and only bought one to shoot at steel and still didn't use it for 18mths. I even went to the extent of shooting open division at our IPSC Nationals with the revolver as "practise" for the IRC. Like mentioned earlier I now only shoot IPSC on a non match weekend.

If there was an open revolver division however, I would be in attendance every week regardless of round counts or stages being "revolver friendly" quite simply because I would be competing with people of similar equipment in a recognized division.

[Waltermitty]

Hop, 8,

I like the idea of the Open Revolver Division although I don't own any equipment that would qualify. The challenge for convincing the skeptics and validating the economics is that there are fewer than 800 (785) classified revolver shooters in USPSA in the entire U.S. Not all of those folks would qualify as committed shooters, some will have classifications just because they shoot the annual revolver match in their home clubs. That's fewer that any other division has in "C" class alone.

I would be happy to find that there are Thousands of revolver shooters out their waiting for an Open Revolver Division. However, on the semi-auto side there are about 50% more classified Limited shooters than Open shooters. I don't know that would hold true in wheelguns, but assuming an Open Revolver would be optics, comps, and capacity unlimited, the barriers to entry would possibly tend to cause Open Revolver shooters to all be from a Limited Revolver division primarily.

Said another way, it appears that almost all "Open" shooters start out as "Limited" shooters in the bottom feeder world. The truly "Hardcore" competitors migrate to Open. Without a broad "limited" division to draw from, where will the "open" shooters come from?

Are we actually talking about alot more divisions? After all, will the 8 shot revo shooter want to compete with the guy with optics and a comp?

[8shooter]

Hop, 8,

Said another way, it appears that almost all "Open" shooters start out as "Limited" shooters in the bottom feeder world.  The truly "Hardcore" competitors migrate to Open.  Without a broad "limited" division to draw from, where will the "open" shooters come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is probably why there is more "classified" limited shooters than open. Maybe the States is different to Australia, but I have never been to a major match (US matches included) that there was more Limited shooters than Open shooters.

"Are we actually talking about alot more divisions? After all, will the 8 shot revo shooter want to compete with the guy with optics and a comp?"

I assume you mean a stock (iron sights) 8 shooter. I personally can't see an advantage in shooting an 8 shot in a limited division, sure you have 2 extra shots but a 625 loads faster and would probably even out speed wise over a big match. I personally am only interested in an open division so I can run the dot and comp on my 8 shot against other Open revolver shooters.

This is how I understood your comments, excuse me if I have misunderstood.

[Carmoney]

One of the biggest matches in the US is Frank Garcia's Florida Open. This year, 158 shooters shot Limited, 125 shooters shot Open. Here in the States, it cannot be said that the hardcore shooters gravitate to Open--if anything, Open tends to be the division of choice for women, children, and older shooters whose eyes aren't as flexible. (<--I don't mean this to sound derogatory or condescending toward anybody--some of my best shooting friends, and many great shooters, fall into one of those categories.) For obvious reasons, open guns are simply easier for those folks to shoot well, as a general rule anyway.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

[8shooter]

For obvious reasons, open guns are simply easier for those folks to shoot well, as a general rule anyway.     

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is true, it is similar here in OZ, Open is an easier gun to blaze through stages with hence, the majority.

I think divisions are shot by people that can do them well. I don't shot iron sights particularly for this reason. I have the best eye sight of all the shooters I associate with regurlarly, but I for the life of me can't use it to focus and align iron sights, yet a very good friend whose eye sight is literally shit house is one of the most accurate shooters with iron sights I have seen.

I shoot open because of my inability to shoot limited well, this inability means I don't enjoy myself as much, same as why I shoot a revolver majority of the time ... quite simply I enjoy it more because I can do it well.

[Jake Di Vita]

I shot Production because it was the equipment I had.

Now I shoot Open because it is the fastest and most intense division...I akin it to funny car racing.