Participation.....

[underlug]

I think some of us older shooters have eyesight focus issues and open allows us to shoot without having to refocus as often

[hopalong]

Jake,

Good to hear from you !!!

When asked by the uninformed that are interested I give this comparison....

USPSA is like Drag racing to this extent.

Open guns are the TOP FUEL Dragsters

Limited guns are the FUNNY cars

L-10 is the Alcohol burners

Production is the Street Rods

and

Revolver is Stock

that usually gives them some type of idea of where they want to try.

FWIW

Sam

[Waltermitty]

This is probably why there is more "classified" limited shooters than open. Maybe the States is different to Australia, but I have never been to a major match (US matches included) that there was more Limited shooters than Open shooters.

"Are we actually talking about alot more divisions? After all, will the 8 shot revo shooter want to compete with the guy with optics and a comp?"

I assume you mean a stock (iron sights) 8 shooter. I personally can't see an advantage in shooting an 8 shot in a limited division, sure you have 2 extra shots but a 625 loads faster and would probably even out speed wise over a big match. I personally am only interested in an open division so I can run the dot and comp on my 8 shot against other Open revolver shooters.

This is how I understood your comments, excuse me if I have misunderstood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the feedback. My point about Limited vs Open shooters is that virtually all Open shooters either started out or passed through one of the Limited divisions (and therefore hold multiple classifications) and there are significantly more Limited divison shooters that don't also hold an Open classification. So at any given major match there may be more Open shooters that day, but they would have never gotten there without passing through Limited first. As such, Limited division is the engine for the volume. It may be that today, Production class will add contribution (which is great) but I just don't see significant numbers starting out in Open. Am I making any sense?

In terms of economics and making the numbers work, the volume favors the (more) Limited division(s) among bottom feeders. So my thought is that while creating an Open Revolver division might attract some current revolver shooters with racing revolvers, (also great!) to get numbers to build the division there first needs to be an entry with lower barriers. I think this may be what is a contributor to the IDPA revolver success.

My question about 8 shot limited goes back to the bitter pill that was presented in the 14th edition rule book. Prior to that rule book there was no 6 shot limit. I knew several people that planned to do well with their new 8 shot moon clip guns in the new revolver division. OOOps. I'll tell ya, particularly with the new classifiers, and 8 shot limited revo in 38 Super would dominate the 625's. You just can't overcome those standing reloads on 8 shot target arrays.

[Waltermitty]

One of the biggest matches in the US is Frank Garcia's Florida Open.  This year, 158 shooters shot Limited, 125 shooters shot Open.  Here in the States, it cannot be said that the hardcore shooters gravitate to Open--if anything, Open tends to be the division of choice for women, children, and older shooters whose eyes aren't as flexible.  (<--I don't mean this to sound derogatory or condescending toward anybody--some of my best shooting friends, and many great shooters, fall into one of those categories.)  For obvious reasons, open guns are simply easier for those folks to shoot well, as a general rule anyway.     

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A scan through major match results shows that the Garcia match is a little unusual. The Florida State match had more Open shooters as do most of the major matches in USPSA. I do not think this distribution holds true for club level matches, even big ones.

While not a hard core Open Division shooter, I don't think the group in general sees themselves as the division of women, children and old folks.

[Waltermitty]

Jake,

Good to hear from you !!!

When asked by the uninformed that are interested I give this comparison....

USPSA is like Drag racing to this extent.

Open guns are the TOP FUEL Dragsters

Limited guns are the FUNNY cars

L-10 is the Alcohol burners

Production  is the Street Rods

and

Revolver is Stock

that usually gives them some type of idea of where they want to try.

FWIW

Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like your breakdown, but you may be leading some folks down the garden path a little. I was with you till Production. In my world:

Production is stock.

Revolver is vintage racing with Flathead Fords and stripped T buckets....

[Jake Di Vita]

Walter beat me to it....I was gonna compare Revolver to horse and buggy though.

[hopalong]

Funny.............Very Funny..........

10,000 comedians in this world out of a job......

And you two trying to be one !!!!

See you sometime, somewhere.....

Sam

BTW,

Horse and Buggy...... That would be Cowboy Action would it not???

[8shooter]

Thanks for the feedback. My point about Limited vs Open shooters is that virtually all Open shooters either started out or passed through one of the Limited divisions (and therefore hold multiple classifications) and there are significantly more Limited divison shooters that don't also hold an Open classification. So at any given major match there may be more Open shooters that day, but they would have never gotten there without passing through Limited first. As such, Limited division is the engine for the volume. It may be that today, Production class will add contribution (which is great) but I just don't see significant numbers starting out in Open. Am I making any sense?

In terms of economics and making the numbers work, the volume favors the (more) Limited division(s) among bottom feeders. So my thought is that while creating an Open Revolver division might attract some current revolver shooters with racing revolvers, (also great!) to get numbers to build the division there first needs to be an entry with lower barriers. I think this may be what is a contributor to the IDPA revolver success.

My question about 8 shot limited goes back to the bitter pill that was presented in the 14th edition rule book. Prior to that rule book there was no 6 shot limit. I knew several people that planned to do well with their new 8 shot moon clip guns in the new revolver division. OOOps. I'll tell ya, particularly with the new classifiers, and 8 shot limited revo in 38 Super would dominate the 625's. You just can't overcome those standing reloads on 8 shot target arrays.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely understand, I think we are heading in the same general direction just on slightlty different winding paths.

I agree in terms that ultimately to increase numbers in any division would require an increase in numbers for the sport, like you said, otherwise if open is increasing, it in turn would decrease limited numbers if we didn't have new shooters joining the ranks of limited.

So how do we create a successful Open revolver division without just stealing people from limited, or do we focus on making limited a more acceptable division, by introducing 8 shots etc, at the same time as introducing an open division, so if people cross to the dark side and add a dot and comp they will be replaced by people getting excited about being able to shoot 8 shot arrays with a revo.

Sorry to ramble on, you struck a nerve of interest with me. We have been fighting to get an Open Revo division over here in IPSC, just feels like we are landing a little too short on every approach.

Oh and Jake

"Walter beat me to it....I was gonna compare Revolver to horse and buggy though."

Thems fighting words ...... damn bottom feeders (mumbled under breath)

[revchuck]

damn bottom feeders (mumbled under breath)

...muttered in the same tone of voice as "Durn sod busters..." in The Outlaw Josey Wales...

[Waltermitty]

Walter beat me to it....I was gonna compare Revolver to horse and buggy though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I almost typed horse and buggy or chariot racing myself but wanted to leave something for the Cowboys.

Maybe if we had Charleton Heston "Pimp My Ride" I could be in Open? "Excuse me RO, but do these long spikey hubcap thingys bump me into open class?"

[underlug]

Re the numbers at major matches: Someone who can buy and maintain a $3000 race gun would be more likely to afford the travel to a major match.

[shred]

Re the numbers at major matches:  Someone who can buy and maintain a $3000 race gun would be more likely to afford the travel to a major match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say "the shooter committed enough to the sport to buy an Open gun (or full-house Limited gun) most likely has shooting matches as a priority, and thus goes more to major matches". The cost of the gun is about zero compared to the travel, fees, ammo and time cost in the long run-- it's those they have to afford.

[hopalong]

What I would like to see at the first match like this would be...

std revolver shooters somewhere around 30

Open revolver shooters.... as many as possible I know some would shoot both as it would be a 2 day shoot to allow that to happen but 20 or so would be great !!!

There are some revolver shooters in ICORE that shoot OPEN only, that is who I am after to get participating with the open class.

I know that having an Open class at a regular match would take a few std revolver shooters away and into Open class but even though they are not shootin Std revolver they would be there and shooting a revolver of some sort thus you are not losing them they are only shooting a different gun, plus if it was available(open) and a match picked up 3-5 more shooters due to that you have just made vast gains in the revolver division.

lets do some Hypathetical math. this year compared to what might happen

USPSA 2004 nationals.............18 revolver shooters

2006 nationals w/ Open rev. 15 (maybe some of the ICORE guys jump in)

of that 15 say 5 left std division for Open so you now have 15 or so Std for those who started since the 2004 and the 15 for Open revolver that would total 30 revolver shooters.... compared to 18.....Never have there been 20 so as far as percentages go that would be the biggest jump in participation ever.

But compared to the 2004 IDPA nationals (58) DAMN where did USPSA go wrong? (AGAIN)

I may be jumping out on a limb but I don't see that many this year with the new ESR division and all the new rules.... I for one was going to go but will not as I bought a 646 to use in IDPA and now that it would be an ESR gun and as light as it is it is not comfortable at all shooting 165,000 PF loads. I would rather shoot my .41 magnum with full house loads. But that is just me.

Any way, I don't see where having a revolver open division would hurt anything at all.... could only help.

( I know, I already hear it coming...."They could shoot their open revolvers in OPEN division") Why would anyone want to shoot an 8 shot revolver against a 30 round open gun in a 32 round field course? aside from getting in the practice?

You don't see the single stack Open steel guns shooting in the Open division in the Nationals either..... But most of those guys that shoot that have a OPEN race gun (there is a place to shoot them)

I do not intend to shoot Open anything, as I don't like the noise of the comp.

But Open Autos have a place to shoot USPSA/IPSC why shouldn't open revolvers????

Sorry for the thread drift and rant but it just kind of came out !!!!

Hopalong

[8shooter]

Re the numbers at major matches:  Someone who can buy and maintain a $3000 race gun would be more likely to afford the travel to a major match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say "the shooter committed enough to the sport to buy an Open gun (or full-house Limited gun) most likely has shooting matches as a priority, and thus goes more to major matches". The cost of the gun is about zero compared to the travel, fees, ammo and time cost in the long run-- it's those they have to afford.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo ........ I have done 2 US matches in the last 18 months with another due in 4 weeks to the US. The first 3 week trip was in the likes of $16500 AU and the second a "short trip" the likes of $8500. The trip in a couple of weeks will probably be around the 10k mark (lucky I'm sponsored by VISA.....ha). Adds up rather quicking when added to the cost of new equipment etc, but I would prefer to be travelling and using the equipment I have got and measuring myself against the best in the world, if I opted not to travel I would own the ultimate of all guns in every division by now, and only half of them would get used.