Gun transitions: Shooting dry vs Racking

[mhearn]

10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading,

reloading or unloading a shotgun.

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually

shooting at targets.

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement

in accordance with Section 8.5.

Multigun situation. What is the ruling on shooting the gun dry versus dropping mags and racking the last round? I know the tactical matches play this pretty loose, but where does USPSA stand on it? I've seen some guys take the shotgun and/or rifle off their shoulder and while in the act of putting it down, they're squeezing the trigger to get those last rounds out. Are they shooting at targets? Right! What they're doing is pulling the trigger until they hear a click. Is this acceptable in USPSA?

[Jake Di Vita]

If your talking about at the end of a stage after the unload and show clear command just shooting all the rounds left in your gun....not a good idea. Actually a pretty stupid one that will probably earn someone an ass whipping from a very miffed RO.

[mhearn]

Jake

I'm talking about when transitioning between guns. For example, in a multi-gun stage, after completing a shotgun segment and before moving to a pistol segment. When they are grounding the shotgun, the gun has to be empty. So, they are shooting those last rounds out instead of racking them out.

MHearn

[Nik Habicht]

With a rifle, when I'm engaging the last paper before the transition, I drop the mag before firing the last aimed shot at the paper. With a shotgun, I rack the rounds out manually --- but then I shoot a pumpgun. With handgun, I dump the mag and either fire the last round, just like rifle, or rack the last round out --- depends on the the relationship of the targets to the grounding box for the handgun......

IMO, this is one of those places on a stage, where you need to focus and take all necessary time, kinda akin to maneuvering through doorways or opening ports or doors in a pistol match.....

[MikeFoley]

After travelling all the way to Reno to fire 17 rounds, I will gladly take all the time necessary to rack the slide next time.

[mactiger]

I'd say that if you are firing the rounds out downrange, into the backstop, and doing it deliberately, that is, with the gun mounted and looking like you intend to shoot it, it should not be a problem. The problems come if you just pull the trigger with the long gun dismounted, or fire shots that leave the confines of the bay, etc., or hit the ground too closely. In other words, shoot it empty as if you were shooting at targets and you shouldn't fall into one of the categories of UGH or Accidental discharge.

I'd also suggest that you ask what's permissible and what isn't--just because the rule says lay it down empty doesn't mean you can empty it in a haphazard or unsafe fashion. The USPSA safety rules tend to be a bit stricter with regards to this. Until there are more multi-gun matches and more multi-gun experienced RO's, it's better to be safe (slower, maybe) than sorry.

Troy

[mhearn]

Thanks for the replys. I'll be R.O.ing at the USPSA Area 6 3 Gun (Moss Branch: Anniston, AL) and I'm still not comfortable with multi-gun stages and the speed unloading thing.

Jake. Your comments seem reasonable. The on the shoulder, off the shoulder distinction seems safe, but the rules don't include such specificity. Your right. We have a ways to go in this area.

Mhearn

[cking]

I support using a bunkered drop tube or box and leave hot safety on as a choice for grounding a weapon. Because of all the problems you've just mentioned. As long as no one is down range of the muzzle, and the RO clears each weapon before calling Range Safe. I also like the idea of three or four steps to the next weapon, that way there is no chance of drying to dump one while grabing the other.

[mhearn]

cking

Drop boxes and steps between weapons during transitions. Both sound good. I've seen some info on drop boxes, but would welcome any additional suggestions.

MHearn

[George]

Drop points that control a hot weapon and making sure the next weapon pickup is not entangled with the dropped off one are the key points in this scenario. Of course, Area 6 may not feature this as USPSA still does not allow a competitor to move away from a loaded gun (Bruce Gary is hopefully fixing this as I write).

We are doing this at our local matches now (USPSA rules be darned). We use a padded barrel pointed into the berm and positioned so that no one can pass in front of it. We use guide sticks, or boxes to control the muzzle of pre-positioned weapens on tables. For dumping guns, we allow folks to use any method they want as the safety of what they do is on them (as it should be). We basically offer the shooter three options. They can rack it dry and dump it, shoot it dry and dump it, or apply the safety and dump it. Hot gun dumped without safety applied is one procedural. AD during unload and show clear of any weapon is a DQ. AD during speed un-loading is a DQ. Detonation during speed un-loading is same as squib, stop shooter, score stage to that point and on with the show, after all a squib and a detonation are both the shooters fault as we are not mandating which method of un-loading (shooters choice). Shooting dry is fine as long as the shooter controls the rounds as they are fired. Uncontrolled firing to empty a gun is a DQ if a round goes in an un-intended/un-safe direction.

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Regards,

[mhearn]

1.

AD during unload and show clear of any weapon is a DQ.

O.K.

2.

AD during speed un-loading is a DQ.

If the discharge is unsafe, Right?

3.

Detonation during speed un-loading

(Do you mean racking, shooting dry, or both? This sounds like scenario#2, which is a DQ.)

is same as squib, stop shooter, score stage to that point and on with the show

Shooting dry is fine as long as the shooter controls the rounds as they are fired. Uncontrolled firing to empty a gun is a DQ if a round goes in an un-intended/un-safe direction. Is uncontrolled firing judged purely by discharge in an unintended and unsafe direction? How do you respond to "I meant to do that!"?

[George]

At the moment, the determination of controlled/uncontrolled is an open point so we have to use the existing rules of bullet over the berm, into the ground within 3 meters, or discharging the gun without being in an active shooting area (between shooting boxes etc.).

Any round fired (bullet leaves muzzle) is a DQ if it happens during re-loading/clearing a jam as in the existing rule structure.

A detonation is a round exploding outside of a gun chamber and is not a DQable offense under any rule structure, but can be dealt with just like we deal with squib rounds (safety issue, stop the shooter, check gun, score stage as is, end of story).

I am of the opinion that NOT specifying how the gun is un-loaded is a much better practice for insurance purposes. If the shooter is injured doing something that was not specified, then it is on him liability-wise if you offered an alternative that will not cause a detonation and the shooter choose to do it his way.

Unload and show clear is after the stage is over and guns are being cleared with the RO. An AD there is always a DQ.

I am also of the opinion that allowing the shooter to re-holster a pistol hot instead of discarding it is a better way than always requiring it get dumped. Offering the shooter options and allowing them to choose what they are most comfortable with is the best way IMHO.

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Regards,

[mhearn]

George

Thanks. Helpful. The logic of presenting options is appealing.

Mhearn

[Nik Habicht]

Hot gun dumped without safety applied is one procedural.

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Regards,

George,

I'm at work without access to rulebooks. I'm pretty sure that 10.5.3.2 (the section that deals with setting a handgun down during a course of fire) or one of it's following sections require a DQ for setting down a weapon with the hammer cocked and safety off. Are the long gun rules different, or should you guys consider modifying your rules to come in line with the handgun rules?

[George]

Hi Nik,

That is what “We” are doing at our multi-gun matches. We use USPSA rules, but ignore them where they conflict with what we deem sensible, more fun, or more in line with what we want to do with the shooting. For instance, we recognize HM division and use Revolver to handle it in EZ-Winscore. We are playing with the power factors and not running a tournament, but a large pistol match with the aggregate being the end all.

There are reasons for sticking by the book and there are reasons for deviating from the written path ;-)

It’s all about the shooting, not the ruling. Safety first and foremost, then do what you must to make the match work the way you want it to.

To specifically address the safety on/off issue. The weapon has to be placed into a device (tube/barrel, etc.) that prevents the muzzle from pointing anywhere but into a berm, or other safe area for a discharge to occur. Then the setup is incorporated into the stage design so as to not allow any transit in front of the gun, ever, or until it is removed under RO supervision. RO inspection is done before removal to verify clear and to check safety condition in order to assess the penalty if deserved.

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Regards,