Open squadding

[kevin c]

Technically speaking, all competitors are supposed to have the same briefing at the stage being shot, the same demo of range equipment, the same opportunity to walk the stage, and the same length of time to do the above. With truly open squadding as I understand it, new shooters just sort of walk up and join the party.

For set piece matches, like GSSF, this isn't an issue (and even there, my experience is that they sort of squad up a bunch of people at a go). For steel matches (not that I've shot any) I think that the shooting is pretty straight forward. But for IPSC matches with activators, ports, different and optional shooting positions, I imagine that there could be some whining, or actually formal protest.

Has anybody had any experience with a major (tournament level) open squadded match where this became an issue? How do you manage/anticipate/avoid it?

[JFlowers]

Kevin,

I would think that this could be a problem with any squadding format, shooters showing up to berms late due to stop-an-chats, bathroom breaks, etc. All a stage crew can do is give the same briefing, walk-thru, and prep time to each squad. Each shooter has a certain amount of responsibility to be there for that briefing. Open squadding just exaggerates the issue since the stage crew does not have a squad list they can check nor can they ask the squad "is everyone here" since no one really knows with the format.

As to protests and arbitration, I don't know. But common sense says that if the crew of stage X gave the same briefing to each squad and Joe Shooter missed it cause he has buying a widget from Bob Vendor, then Joe Shooter had the same opportunity as everyone else can chose not to take advantage of it, so the responsibility is his not the stage crews.

I have never shot a major event in any of the shooting sports with that type of open squadding. I can just imagine the headaches it would cause.

[BSeevers]

.

.  But common sense says that if the crew of stage X gave the same briefing to each squad and Joe Shooter missed it cause he has buying a widget from Bob Vendor, then Joe Shooter had the same opportunity as everyone else can chose not to take advantage of it, so the responsibility is his not the stage crews.

I wouldn't allow open squadding at all like you are describing but the CRO should have a master squad list and do a role call before doing the walkthrough. I believe that is his responsbility.

If my bladder happens to be full 1 minute before role call and I am in a porta potty I deserve a walkthrough too. Most CRO's or really all of them will wait or do walkthrough again. If not I recommend calling the RM or MD.

PS If you miss the walkthrough then you have some grounds for a reshoot so that's why you need to be sure all shooters get one

[standles]

There are some assumptions here so bear with me.

The walkthroughs are scheduled at a known time for squads.

If you choose to linger in a "stop-n-chat", decide it is that precise moment you need to relive yourself, or any other myriad of excuses, then why should the briefing wait for you?

In order to run an orderly/timely match you have to move things along. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to be at the stage briefing.

We could I guess regress to grade school and have each squad hold onto that squads colored rope as the CRO leads them to the stage, has them all sit indian style on the ground, put on thier quite faces, and listen to the stage brief. after the brief then the kids can go play in the stage for awhile before naptime.

In my opinion your are given the same opportunity and time as everyone else in your squad. If you choose to use that time otherwise you made that choice and the match owes you nothing in the way of a reshoot (FLAMING GAMER) or a solo walkthrough.

Now if the CRO out of the goodness of his heart want to accomadate another walkthrough due to your arrogance (yes i view it that way because if it was important to you you would have been there with all the others) then so be it if it doesn't impact the next squad trying to come through or slow the match down..

[Flexmoney]

I believe that kevin c's question is about Open Squadding (we call it shotgun squadding).

I'm sure it has been done at Major matches, but I can see where there would be problems (shooters don't want to stick around and paste targets, for example).

[lynn jones]

i think that when using open/shotgun squadding is used the RO's would just collect about 10 or so score sheets and give those the walk through. repeat as needed.

i don't like this type of squadding, i like structure.

lynn

[bgary]

Note that there is a rule that says you *have* to be on the stage at the time you're supposed to be there, and if you aren't there on time, you have to get the permission of the MD before you can shoot the stage (6.6.1)

Have never seen this enforced at a club match. But it gets enforced at big matches all the time. And... generally what happens is that the late-comer goes to the bottom of the stack, and gets his/her own walkthru - read verbatim, just like everyone else got - when it is his/her turn to shoot.

Bruce

[standles]

Sorry...

I re-read the original post and then noticed it was open-squad.

however, my views on the other remain

[Merlin Orr]

i think that when using open/shotgun squadding is used the RO's would just collect about 10 or so score sheets and give those the walk through. repeat as needed.

i don't like this type of squadding, i like structure.

lynn

Lynn has the answer. Easy to do - no muss - no fuss. If the competitor does not answer when his score sheet is called you put him in the next "batch."

[ErikW]

Making the ROs do fifteen to twenty walk-throughs is a pain. Here's what I did...

Everybody is on squad 1. Squad 1 has an official walkthrough for each stage, starting on Stage 1 at 8:00 AM. The ROs read the course descriptions regardless of attendance.

That solves the rule-legality but it doesn't solve the other problems.

[BSeevers]

There are some assumptions here so bear with me.

The walkthroughs are scheduled at a known time for squads.

If you choose to linger in a "stop-n-chat", decide it is that precise moment you need to relive yourself, or any other myriad of excuses, then why should the briefing wait for you?

In order to run an orderly/timely match you have to move things along.  IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to be at the stage briefing. 

In my opinion your are given the same opportunity and time as everyone else in your squad.  If you choose to use that time otherwise you made that choice and the match owes you nothing in the way of a reshoot (FLAMING GAMER) or a solo walkthrough. 

Now if the CRO out of the goodness of his heart want to accomadate another walkthrough due to your arrogance (yes i view it that way because if it was important to you you would have been there with all the others) then so be it if it doesn't impact the next squad trying to come through or slow the match down..

I have shot 100's of big matches and they go like this 99% of the time(except for the first stage of the day or after lunch yea if you are to be on the stage at 8am or 1 pm for walkthrough and miss it you are wrong) Squad shows up at stage 3 at 10:45 scheduled for 11 am with 1 or 2 squads ahead. who knows. Walkthrough scheduled for 11 am. Real walkthrough happens at 11:35, Thats real world and it arrogant to use the bathroom at 11:34 not knowing the CRO is ready??

Or the other real world example is squad shows at 10:45 scheduled for 11:00 and stage is empty. CRO should also then do a roll call and see if all want to start early. In your experience walkthroughs happen at the scheduled time every time???? In mine I would say never or pretty close to it.

I also shot with a lot of slow moving old farts(no offense) what are we supposed to do start the walk through since they were arrogant enough not to walk to the stage fast enough? CRO reading the roster has worked every time I have seen it used, including Nationals.

My personal example also had nothing to do with socializing or being a prima donna.

[standles]

Nope very seldom have I had a walkthrough happen at exactly the time it was supposed to. However...... I made sure I was there at the appointed time and if needed waited the 10 or 15 minutes for my brief.

I guess I should have not used the word arrogant. I chose it based on 3 incidences where shooters were just to busy to be bothered to show up with the rest of us. The arrogant aspect became further ingrained with the "I paid good money to shoot this match so I don't have to help/be civil" skit that was played out.

Thankfully I haven't seen or shot with these prima donnas in a while. They may have dropped out of the sport al together for all I know.

[kevin c]

So, what I am hearing for open, "shotgun" squadding where people have NO assigned squads and NO assigned start times, one option is that the CROs basically create a squad out of available shooters and give them the walkthrough and duties, and stragglers wait for the next batch.

I see EW's point, this could get to be very wearing on the CROs if the squads are too small (people wandering up one at a time). It might work if the shooters really are circulating, and also understand that they aren't going to just run up, get their own walkthrough, shoot, and then run away. If you have enough people to make a reasonable squad of, say 7 to 10 shooters, can turn them around in the standard 30 to 40 minutes, and keep cycling groups through that way, it wouldn't be too different from standard squadding for the ROs, and allows the shooters some more flexibility in their shooting schedule (though not necessarily less time to shoot all the stages in the match).

Seems that the shooters would need to be told clearly that they need to stay around for duties after they shoot, otherwise the system degenerates. This might be hard to do, unless squads are small enough that people don't have to hang around too long. Even then I think most people will be tempted to sneak away. And again, smaller squads seems to mean more work for the ROs.

Looks like there are competing needs with open squadding...