OAL questions 38 Super, 124gr Speer GDHP

[PAcanis]

Hi guys

I got the equipment and bullets today to start loading for .38 Super. My reloading book did not have data on the bullets I purchased, Speer 124 gr Gold Dot jacketed HP's, but I found two loads online like I mentioned in my primer thread. Both (two different powders) call for an OAL of 1.260". Is that number flexible? Can it be shortened?

What I'm getting at is, the Lymans book says 1.275 for 230 gr .45acp, but who really seats that length. 1.262 works for me and I know some go a lot shorter.

The reason I'm asking is, I had a feeding problem at first racking the slide of my 1911. I got bullet setback as the slide drove the round straight into the ramp. I ejected and tried again and then they fed fine. And the fps was right in line with where I was supposed to be on those two rounds. The rest of the rounds in the magazine fed just fine cycling on their own. I was a little low on their velocity according to the recipe I was using. If they also received setback I wouldn't know as I did not eject to measure, but I'm thinking the lower velocity is telling me they pretty much stayed at 1.260. BTW, I only crimped the bell out, so it's not much of a taper crimp at all. Maybe adding more crimp would allow the round to feed better because there wouldn't be any "give".

For comparison, the 130 gr Magtech JRN are 1.250 OAL and they feed just fine. And my feed ramp is polished. Dirty, but polished.

Any advice or input?

I don't understand when it is allowable to shorten OAL from what is published.

[PAcanis]

I went ahead and seated the bullet a little further, plus added a little more crimp. The first round off the magazine feeds fine now without setback, whether I slingshot the slide or use the slide release.

I also dropped the powder charge .1 gr. I guess we'll see what happens when I shoot over the chronograph. Hopefully it's around where I'm supposed to be.

[Hi-Power Jack]

As you mentioned, the OAL is flexible - if you perform the Plunk Test,

you can determine the longest your rounds can be.

You don't mention what velocity you're loading to ?? Major or minor??

If you're loading Major, I wouldn't try to make Major on the first go around -

I'd start 10% low and work up slowly with the chrono.

You didn't mention which powder you're using, or the amount, either.

Good way to check for pushback is to push the cartridge into a firm

object (like your reloading bench); try that with 10 cartridges, push

as hard as you can, and then re-measure the OAL.

If there's setback (or pushback) it might be the sizing die you're using

NOT sizing the case enough to hold the bullet tight.

[jcc7x7]

I load 1.245 for my race gun cause it runs smoother there than longer.

Make sure you do your due diligence working up the load at whatever length works well in your pistol

[PAcanis]

As you mentioned, the OAL is flexible - if you perform the Plunk Test,

you can determine the longest your rounds can be.

Thanks. I wasn't sure it was flexible because it said 1.260 was the min length. Yet they were not feeding...

Plunk test was fine with the rounds that would not feed and of course now, too.

You don't mention what velocity you're loading to ?? Major or minor??

If you're loading Major, I wouldn't try to make Major on the first go around -

I'd start 10% low and work up slowly with the chrono.

Sorry. The recipe on Alliant's site said my fps should be 1208. It simply said 6.2 grains of Unique, 1208 fps, so that was my goal.

Like I said in my post, the rounds where the bullet pushed in a little were very close to the velocity. The ones that fed afterward were a bit low, more like 1170.

Major or minor? No idea what that means.

You didn't mention which powder you're using, or the amount, either.

Sorry again. I didn't know the powder affected OAL or feeding.

6.2 grains of Unique, but like I said in my other post, I dropped it back to 6.1 because I was seating further and crimping more.

Good way to check for pushback is to push the cartridge into a firm

object (like your reloading bench); try that with 10 cartridges, push

as hard as you can, and then re-measure the OAL.

Good test. Thanks.

They aren't moving anymore, so I think I'm good.

[PAcanis]

I load 1.245 for my race gun cause it runs smoother there than longer.

Make sure you do your due diligence working up the load at whatever length works well in your pistol

What bullet are you using?

My Lymans reloading manual is all over the place for OAL and the bullet type and weight.

Doesn't it make that much of a difference?

[HI5-O]

I shoot 38 Super Comp in my open guns and load to 1.225-1.230 using a Zero 121 grain jhp. If I use round nose bullets I load it 1.230-1.235.

Part of the reasons for this length was thru some discussion with a knowledgeable mag tuner and the limitations of the mags (front to back measurement). I was loading to 1.250 until some rounds started jamming in the mag tube.

BE did some work on finding the ideal overall loaded length (he was using .40) and posted it in these forums. Basically it was adjusting the overall length for the bullet to hit the feed ramp somewhere in the middle to upper area.

[superdude]

Major and Minor refer to power factor. It is calculated from bullet weight and velocity. Your load would be considered Minor power factor. You can read about power factor at the link below:

http://38super.net/Pages/Major.html

Also, you can get practical advice on overall length at the link below:

http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html

Edited October 8, 2014 by superdude

[PAcanis]

Thanks guys.

The thing that's throwing me, that I haven't seen before, is .38 Super loads are different for the make of bullet. I'm used to seeing loads for JHP in a certain weight, not loads specific to the Speer GDHP in a certain weight. Maybe that's because of the concave bottom or the bullet is unique in some way.

HI5-O, I'll use your OAL as guidelines. And thanks for BE's method of determining OAL for a given pistol. But obviously if I keep seating the bullet further to hit the ramp right, I'll be raising pressure, right? How can I tell if I'm raising pressure too much? I only have a chronograph. Is there a formula on how much faster the bullet can go above the published fps? Or do I want to do it like I said, drop my powder charge to make up for the added seated depth?

Great links Superdude. thanks.

It certainly seems like loading .38 Super is a different animal.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1. .38 Super loads are different for the make of bullet. I'm used to seeing loads for JHP in a certain weight, not loads specific to the Speer GDHP in a certain weight.

2. obviously if I seat the bullet further to hit the ramp right, I'll be raising pressure, right? Or do I drop my powder charge to make up for the added seated depth?

1. For all calibers, if you change the shape of the bullet (same weight) you may have to adjust your OAL- not just the .38 super

2. Yes, if you lower your OAL, you should lower the powder charge, and work up slowly with a chrono.

BTW, your load of a 124 gr bullet at 1,200 fps is consider minor (about 149 PF) - many people load their .38 supers (with certain guns with supported barrels) up to 175+. So, you are not in a high danger area, yet, if you've solved the pushback problem. Of course, no one is using Unique (I don't think) to make Major loads.

I'm not sure if you are at the top of the recommended range for Unique in your caliber. Another good reason to start lower and work up slowly while watching for overpressure signs.

Glad you solved the pushback problem - that can get you into a lot of trouble.

[PAcanis]

Thanks, H-P.

Yeah, Unique really fills the case. I'm not sure why I chose Unique... probably because I wanted to save my Bullseye for .45acp because I shoot that a lot more.

[Hi-Power Jack]

If Unique fills the case, you do have to worry about pushback -

and probably whether you're at the top of the range for a Unique load.

Be cautious with it - start low and work up slowly.

Keep watching for flattened primers ....

Any reason to load to 1200 fps? Would 1100 fps be a little safer?

Just a thought ...

[PAcanis]

There was only one load published, not a range. And the fps was lower than the published fps for the Magtech ammo I had been shooting. It seemed like a good starting point.

[superdude]

Thanks guys.

The thing that's throwing me, that I haven't seen before, is .38 Super loads are different for the make of bullet. Same as any cartridge. I'm used to seeing loads for JHP in a certain weight, not loads specific to the Speer GDHP in a certain weight. Maybe that's because of the concave bottom or the bullet is unique in some way. Nope. Different bullet types (jacketed, plated, cast) tend to have their own data because they produce different velocities and pressures. There's nothing unusual here. You have to take this into consideration with all cartridges and bullets. And no two test labs have exactly the same data. See this link for an explanation: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=453406

HI5-O, I'll use your OAL as guidelines. And thanks for BE's method of determining OAL for a given pistol. But obviously if I keep seating the bullet further to hit the ramp right, I'll be raising pressure, right? Yes. How can I tell if I'm raising pressure too much? No clear way. Just watch for pressure signs. I only have a chronograph. Is there a formula on how much faster the bullet can go above the published fps? No. Or do I want to do it like I said, drop my powder charge to make up for the added seated depth? Yes.

Great links Superdude. thanks.

It certainly seems like loading .38 Super is a different animal. Nope. Same as any cartridge.

The 38 Super is just like any other cartridge.

As noted above, the 38 Super is often loaded way past what your load will produce. But this practice is only recommended for guns that have barrels that fully support the case to prevent the excess pressure from rupturing the brass in the unsupported region. When loading to excess pressure, gunpowder selection is very important because they produce different pressures for the same velocity.

[PAcanis]

Interesting. Thanks.

Like I said, I've never run into different loads or seating depths for the same style of bullet before. For .45acp I've been loading 230 gr Berrys plated RN the same as 230 gr Raniers plated RN. And I've been using three different castings of 200 gr LSWC, yet have loaded them all the same. I'll have to do some more digging into the differences. I guess I've been lucky simply going by the Lymans manual.

This is where I'm at:

I'm seating at 1.250 - 1.252

I'm throwing 6.1 grains of Unique, but being a flake powder I've measured 6.0 - 6.2.

I just shot five rounds with a high of 1200 fps and a low of 1165. That's more of a spread than I am used to, but it is what it is.

I'll load up some more, as these are feeding fine, not exceeding the published 1208 fps, the primers look normal and they *feel* like they are shooting just fine.

Next I'll throw up a target and see how accurate they are.

[superdude]

What gun are you running? Does it have a ramped barrel?

[PAcanis]

It's a homebuilt 1911 with an unramped Kart barrel. It has a stainless frame and I am more familiar working with unramped barrels, so that's what I went with.

[PAcanis]

Hah. Wouldn't you know. I've got a problem with feeding with the one mag. I should have checked all three out before I assumed I had a good OAL.

Back to the drawing board.

[PAcanis]

Whelp, I gave this a rest a while and just had at it again. What I found was loading the magazines to capacity caused the top round to jam up due to the nose dive. And also the next 2-3 rounds were good candidates to jam in the nose dive position, too. About a third of the time. I adjusted the followers slightly to give them more of an angle, hoping to hold the nose up more starting from the first round in and translating to number 8. This worked well as long as I only loaded seven rounds. Sometimes the first round felt a little "clunky" loading, but no more jams. But I wasn't happy yet.

This was loading to 1.260" OAL. I found an ammo manufacturer online that used the same Speer GDHP bullets and the OAL was listed at 1.241", so I loaded a dummy round and put it in the mag as the eighth round in. Jam. Maybe the fact that I have a Caspian frame is the problem and my feed ramp is the wrong angle, As I am not having this problem with my Colt Commander. Anyway, the shorter OAL wasn't making sense to me anyway. That just meant the round could nose dive more as it was stripped from the magazine before hitting the ramp, so I went the other way. I seated a bullet to 1.278, loaded it in at number 8 and hit the slide release. And the slide slammed shut! Eureka! BUT... even with a slight taper crimp I had setback. The round measured 1.262. Almost my original length. So I guess technically speaking, I'd have been fine shooting it (if it was live).

I'm assuming though that all eight rounds are not going to setback the same as the angles change and the magazine empties, so I'm going to increase my crimp until I don't get anymore setback. My only other option is to try to change the angle of the feed ramp, but that's above my pay scale. I suppose I could pick up a protractor and at least compare it to my Commander, but if I can solve the problem my simply adjusting the seating depth, that seems like the easy way out. I'll just need to rework my loads to maintain my velocity.

That's where I'm at anyway.

[superdude]

You could also try a different bullet. The GDHP isn't the best feeder in my experience.

What brass are you using? If you're using semi-rimmed 38 Super brass, the semi-rim tends to enhance nosedive. A "rimless" version like Starline 38 Super Comp will reduce nosedive.

[PAcanis]

Trying a different bullet has crossed my mind, but I bought 1000 of these. I didn't think I'd be running into this problem. Lesson learned.

I'm using Magtech nickel plated brass. Semi-rimmed.

I took a break while I ate dinner and just tried a fresh bullet. The other one was getting pretty beat up being seated and re-crimped. I seated the fresh bullet to 1.280 with half a turn on the crimp die. It fed smoothly, but setback was 1.265. Trying to seat that same cartridge again jammed it and pushed the bullet further in, to 1.210.

Very frustrating trying to fine tune this to handle 8 in the mag. Maybe I do need the feed ramp adjusted.

[PAcanis]

OK. Finally.

After further conversations and suggestions yesterday with Dillon and Speer; and also I took note that the feed ramp in this Caspian was much shorter than my 38 Super Commander or my compact Kimber (45acp), that uses a ramped barrel, I attacked things head on.

First I lengthened the feed ramp by taking the "hump" out that the bullet tip of the first two rounds was hitting. Then I adjusted the tip of the metal follower so the first round loaded into the magazine and the subsequent rounds sat at a slightly steeper angle. This was suggested by Speer so the first couple rounds would not nosedive as far. Dillon's TS actually told me that in "40 years of building 1911's" he had never heard of a round nosediving... I found that odd. Maybe he doesn't own a computer.

Adjusting the ramp and follower cured the feeding problem, but I was still getting setback. Even if only one round was loaded into the magazine I would get setback as it fed. And just for the heck of it I loaded one round into my Commander's magazine and also experienced setback. Obviously I was having a problem setting up the crimping die, and this is where Dillon's TS really helped.

I found the optimum length to be 1.260", right where Speer said they tested the ammo at. 1.280 actually fed smoother, but I would get major setback. 1.260 and I did not get setback. This was after following Dillon's instructions on how to set up the crimping die.

He said to run an empty case up into the die and keep screwing down the crimping die until it looked like I was barely getting a roll on the top edge. He said to ignore the 1/4 to 1/2 turn rule. That I should start seeing a shiny ring around the case mouth, but if the ring was 1/16" I went way to far. This adjustment ended up being more than one full turn from where the die first touched the case. Maybe the cases being nickel had something to do with them being harder to taper crimp as compared to straight brass, as nickel is a harder metal. Anyway, once I got the die set up to where I knew I was crimping the mouth, no more setback. I chambered the eighth round in the mag three times and it held right at 1.260". Then, just to see if I could, I dropped the recoil spring to 16lbs and everything was still hand cycling fine.

Nothing left to do now but live testing, but there's snow on the ground now and I don't feel like losing brass. I'm pretty confident there won't be a problem.

[superdude]

Changing the feed ramp probably did the trick. Hope she works at the range.

If Dillon's TS person has never heard of a round nosediving, he's a bit out of touch. He should read this: http://38super.net/Pages/Nosedive.html

[PAcanis]

Thanks, Superdude.

And I agree. It was getting a bit frustrating trying to explain it to him. I felt like asking for his email and sending him one of the multitude of links explaining what nosedives were. I told him that when he has some spare time, to load some 1911 magazines to capacity and push the top round or two off with his thumb and watch them before they leave the lips. And then I explained my problem was further compounded by my cases being semi-rimed and that changing the angle they set in the magazine. He just wasn't getting it. He did know his crimping though.

And hey, I learned something.