Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Those that have shot revolvers for a while, have evolved from speed loaders to moon clips. Efficiency is one reason, but economy (shooting one caliber or two) is another. Is it gaming? Only to those not willing to evolve. I started in SSR with what I carried in LE. K frame with comp I loaders. Going back to a speed loader gun is a step backwards. I am willing to shoot my 66 some of the time as that is what I have gear for. My 610 and 625 will be most of the time. As to the question of why they think the moon clip is "Gaming"? I see this from those that want to win their class in SSR. They have not evolved and need to lower the standards so they do not need to compete with those that have moved forward. Many fancy themselves as what one posted, RRS. (Real revolver shooters) I find these people to be out of touch in their thoughts. They claim this is what the Police Officers have carried for years and that is the true "Stock Service Revolver". In all actuality, the speed loader did not become popular intil the mid to lat 70s for duty use and was not accepted by many major departments for duty use until the 80's. Speed loaders were the trick equipment for those shooting PPC. Those Dade loaders were quick To those that feel and have stated that the Moon Clips are gamer and speed loaders traditional, I suggest this. The 1/2 moon clip was developed in 1916. The speed loaders were developed in the 1960s. If you really want to be the "Real Revolver Shooters" and want to use what Police Officers used for the longest time, I suggest you practice with what I started with. Practice with ammo loose in your pocket. That is a truely tradition way to reload. Next move to dump pouches. Six rounds in your hand at one time must be faster Next you can go the twelve loop carrier loading 2 X 2. When you have these mastered, try speed loaders. I have a couple KelLite loaders I will let you practice with. Then the HKS, Then the Dade (Don't drop one) Then the Safariland Comp Series ( By the way COMP stands for Competition) When you have played with and mastered all these revolver reload methods, you will realize why the people that have shot revolvers, probably a lot longer than you have, finally evolved and advanced to Moon Clips. It just made sense. Until you have tried all the options, I suggest you stop all the name calling and try learning why. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 By the way, here is an EBAY auction to help you "Traditional" revolver shooters get started. I already have most of it so have fun. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...7129217328&rd=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Sucks...next thing you know...somebody might even shoot a bottom feeder. (keeping it light) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Gamer: One who uses less then the most difficult equipment. example: SSR Division One who uses less then a 2" 44 mag (full power loads) with out rear sights, holstered in a tripple lock holster, using snap lock speed loaders holders and a full length rain coat with both a full length zipper and at least 6 buttons. All of which must be fastened, and cinched with a belt. Equipment Test: Being able to draw and fire in less then 10 seconds would draw FTDR. Gamism: A gamer refering to another gamer, as a gamer in a "holier then thou" manner. I'm a gamer, I'm proud that I'm honest about it. I've never seen anyone shoot or read any competition post by anyone who isn't. Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewalker Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 For the many SSR shooters that used the 625 , we considered it like any other gun platform. As for me I didnt go into the sports store and ask for a IDPA GAMERS gun. I looked at the equiptment used by our local shooters, then i practiced until i mastered some of there techniques. I have a hard time following anyones logic that will bash another revolver shooter because of LEGAL equiptment. Most competators chose there equiptment, (their choice) Most will practice until they master there equiptment With regret as much discussion as we have had on the SSR-ESR and a portion of the shooters feeling that SSR (with 625s) are nothing but gamers, I have retired my 625 until the new rules come out. OK now i wont have to feel like im a "Gamer" at Feb Winter Classic match But one last thought.......Since i put up my 625 SSR Master, and i will shoot as a CDP SS Will I still be a "gamer?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 (edited) Round gun shooter, I must Disagree, the reason it is considered gaming is that the speedloader users don't want to have to practice to keep up It is considered gaming the same as a Single stack gun is considered harder to reload than a double stack gun is in USPSA I don't know who said it but in the L-10 vs "provisional Division" string someone said it is "skill level" and Flexmoney also hit it with his " I don't believe in the equipment crutch " AMEN BROTHER Those words also fit in this catagorie. Sorry guys/gals but that is just the way it is. AND if you want to talk "real world" let me ask you this.... If you were carrying a revolver for Defensive purpose and had to use it.... If a reload was NEEDED would you rather have the GAMER gun or the SPEED LOADER gun.... I will answer that for most.... THE ONE I AM MOST FAMILIAR WITH !!!!!!! so there you are it all boild BACK down to SKILL LEVEL !!!!!!!! Hopalong Firewalker you GAMER Edited January 23, 2005 by hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 SNIPIf you were carrying a revolver for Defensive purpose and had to use it.... If a reload was NEEDED would you rather have the GAMER gun or the SPEED LOADER gun.... I will answer that for most.... THE ONE I AM MOST FAMILIAR WITH !!!!!!! so there you are it all boild BACK down to SKILL LEVEL !!!!!!!! Hopalong Firewalker you GAMER Kinda why I carry a 325PD. Firewalker, what are you shooting at S&W? I am torn between my 2.5" 66 with full magnum loads from an IWB holster to simulate "Real world conditions" and my 4" 66 with the 38spl +P loads that make power factor. I am having trouble deciding. Either way, I plan to use Comp I speed loaders from either vest pocket or shoot the moon holders modified to the speed loaders. I know, the holders are just a little bit gamey So far the 357MAG loads are winning as I want to simulate what I carry on a regular basis and don't have a revolver in 357SIG. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firewalker Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The message i try to convey is that revolver shooters make up a small percentage of shooters. It is frusterating enough to have headquarters rewriting our SSR-ESR rules and figuring out how to enjoy our sport without having divisions among revolver shooters. Sam i put my revolver down over the new rule book. since revised and soon to be released. I needed a break until equiptment and rules are here i will just enjoy and learn to shoot my CDP better. And a last note I think that HQ has done a fine job addresessing our concerns . Yes this means i will probally buy new guns,holsters mag pouches ect. But heh I do that all the time anyways with out rule changes (time to just shoot and have a good time again) Frederick Haring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 I'm not a revolver shooter, but I'll try to answer this anyway. From the comments that BW made, I believe the problem with moon clip guns is their weight/size - and whether they are truly a carry piece. Before you all jump on me for that comment, I mean a typical carry gun for a typical person. We all know folks who carry these. There are exceptions to every statement. But most don't want to lug that weight around. One thing for the nightstand, another to strap on every day. Same kind of deal for the 7 or 8 round revolvers. I suspect that it has less to do with moonclips than size/weight? So, Does anyone know of a breakdown of what DOES get carried by the CCW holders of the US? For me, as this is a practical sport, I'd like to see the rules change when carry habits are understood and to follow their movements. IE, if optics or lasers or mounted lights were ever used by some significant percentage, then let them in. In the same vain, if a majority of revo owners did moonclip conversions then that mod should be allowed (in SSR) BTW, I have to admit that as I read thru the rules to suggest clarifications I began to understand why most were enacted. I don't like them all, but understand most. But I have to agree with above, no matter how compelling the arguement, I don't agree with taking the smallest division and splitting it. IF it grows the SSR group, then great. More shooters the better. But I don't think it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The Smith & Wesson 646 (L-frame, .40 S&W) was beginning to come on pretty strong at the higher levels in IDPA SSR when the rule changes knocked it into virtual uselessness. I used one to take Expert class at the 2004 Missouri State Championships. I also found it to be a nice practical carry gun--unlike anything ever built on an N-frame. Now due to the whining of a very few mediocre shooters, and a headquarters that doesn't know much about wheelguns, my (former) main IDPA gun is not legal in SSR division and it's not comfortably shootable in ESR. My 646, however, will make an excellent IPSC revolver (with minor loads) for my 11-year-old, who will certainly benefit from the upgrade to moonclips! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 YEE-HAA Sam Is getting a new gun, now just remember to tell him he doesn't need to whip all our butts imediately. YES I TOO WAS QUITE MAD THAT MY NEW 646 HAD JUST BEEN ELEMINATED AS A USEABLE GUN IN IDPA, WHAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THE SPLIT OF THE DIVISION (THAT WAS REALLY NOT NEEDED) BE DONE BY WEIGHT NOT MOONCLIP VS. SPEEDLOADERS. Can't wait to see Sam go with the 646, pretty good with the old gun with a little time ........... it may keep me from sleeping correctly for the next few months Well, my 646 will see service with ICORE and if I ever learn how to shoot ALL A's then I may do the same as Young Sam Carmoney! Hopalong / Sam Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 YEE-HAA Sam Is getting a new gun, now just remember to tell him he doesn't need to whip all our butts imediately. YES I TOO WAS QUITE MAD THAT MY NEW 646 HAD JUST BEEN ELEMINATED AS A USEABLE GUN IN IDPA, WHAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THE SPLIT OF THE DIVISION (THAT WAS REALLY NOT NEEDED) BE DONE BY WEIGHT NOT MOONCLIP VS. SPEEDLOADERS. Can't wait to see Sam go with the 646, pretty good with the old gun with a little time ........... it may keep me from sleeping correctly for the next few months Well, my 646 will see service with ICORE and if I ever learn how to shoot ALL A's then I may do the same as Young Sam Carmoney! Hopalong / Sam Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 As to the question of why they think the moon clip is "Gaming"? IGNORANCE and lack of practice with their own rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 I'm not a revolver shooter, but I'll try to answer this anyway. From the comments that BW made, I believe the problem with moon clip guns is their weight/size - and whether they are truly a carry piece. Before you all jump on me for that comment, I mean a typical carry gun for a typical person. We all know folks who carry these. There are exceptions to every statement. But most don't want to lug that weight around. One thing for the nightstand, another to strap on every day. Same kind of deal for the 7 or 8 round revolvers. I suspect that it has less to do with moonclips than size/weight? I would disagree. There are many revolvers that do not use moon clips that have the weight. Mr Wilson stated in his response Due to the overly generous weight limit, ESR is the least practical of all divisions, yet the gamers continue to complain? First, no bashing on this, I am asking a legitimate question and all the other crap has been said We shoot the guns that were allowed. Some weigh more than others. Same with other divisions. We do not design them, we just shoot them. If it were weight only, the 646 could be used in SSR. If it were a weight issue, my 325PD could be shot in SSR. It is Not a weight issue. Moon clips are portrayed as having a gamer advantage. Why? They are a reloading device that requires a lot of practice to master just like a speed loader. Why is the speed loader not gaming but the moon clip is? If weight is such a factor, 38spl from a S&W 686 must be gaming also. The gun was designed as a competition revolver to compete with the Colt Python in the PPC Distinguished category just like the Model 25 was designed for Bulls Eye. Unfortunately, a few vocal IDPA members felt that since they did not shoot N Frame Moon Clip guns, it must be gaming. Mr Wilson and IDPA bought into the thought process. As far as practical carry, if you are going to do a survey, do it for all divisions. I think you will find moon clip guns are carried. Moon clip guns include the S&W L Comp with that nasty hole in the top of the barrel, the light weight 325PD, and others that have been converted. I do not wish to discuss rules in this thread and if you are or are not using your moon clip gun. My purpose is to try to understand why Moon clips are gamey and why speed loaders are not. Both are equally quick in a practiced hand. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 For the many SSR shooters that used the 625 , we considered it like any other gun platform. As for me I didnt go into the sports store and ask for a IDPA GAMERS gun. I looked at the equiptment used by our local shooters, then i practiced until i mastered some of there techniques. I have a hard time following anyones logic that will bash another revolver shooter because of LEGAL equiptment. Most competators chose there equiptment, (their choice) Most will practice until they master there equiptment With regret as much discussion as we have had on the SSR-ESR and a portion of the shooters feeling that SSR (with 625s) are nothing but gamers, I have retired my 625 until the new rules come out. OK now i wont have to feel like im a "Gamer" at Feb Winter Classic match But one last thought.......Since i put up my 625 SSR Master, and i will shoot as a CDP SS Will I still be a "gamer?" Yep you'll always be a GAMER, not to mention a sandbagger in CDP Semper Fi Bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 See my post in the What I Hate forum about the word GAMER. If you consider this word to mean that you are competitive enough to want to win and clever enough to find ways to increase your chances, then it is a compliment. It's all in the way you choose to look at it and just because BW says it with negative intent does not make it so. MoonClips ARE suitable for carry BECAUSE some of us can reload faster with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 RGS "Those that have shot revolvers for a while, have evolved from speed loaders to moon clips. Efficiency is one reason, but economy (shooting one caliber or two) is another. Is it gaming? Only to those not willing to evolve." Well, the other argument, Dr. Crick, is that fullmoon clips were designed for those who were genetically predisposed to fumbling speedloaders, right? Kinda like a training wheel... "Unfortunately, a few vocal IDPA members felt that since they did not shoot N Frame Moon Clip guns, it must be gaming. Mr Wilson and IDPA bought into the thought process. " Right - all the work of a sinister vocal minority from the grassy knoll... Carmoney "Now due to the whining of a very few mediocre shooters, and a headquarters that doesn't know much about wheelguns, my (former) main IDPA gun is not legal in SSR division and it's not comfortably shootable in ESR. " Boo-hoo - put a little more powder in your case, take an Advil and get on with it. Redmist10 "IGNORANCE and lack of practice with their own rigs." ... but no 7 & 8 shot revolvers in YOUR division, right? What's the matter - can't count to 8 ? Ouch! Well, we might as well break the story now I guess - a few mediocre, ignorant genetic throwbacks slipped silently down to HQ in AR, gassed them and put them in a trance. We then brainwashed them into creating ESR. Gosh - I feel better now that we've come clean... The ESR/SSR argument to HQ was made by many more than a few and based on equipment parity and the subsequent relevance of the division definition/examples stated in the old rule book with the stated principles in therein - not the genetic, skill, or intellectual level of the membership. Grow up boys - it's getting personal. One question for you -who's whining now? The same 2 or 3 or 4 names pop up on the discussion boards bemoaning the new rules. I hope you can get over it and move on. For those who wish to push the equipment envelope, you already have a game to play. Why do you need (2)? I think Bill Wilson's observation/hits on ESR were down zero. Antievolutionary, Ignorant, Mediocre (and SOing - Gary you'd better check my math on your score sheet, I'm not so sharp you know) and all in fun, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 "Gamer" in the other sports I have played has always been a compliment---it meant a person who played tough, often times through or with a few hurts. BW uses it in a different way, go figure. These shooting sports are games, and thank goodness for that! Otherwise, the targets would fire back and we would all pray for real cover, as opposed to some thin little boards nailed together the day of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I still don't understand, nor has anyone tried to explain to me, why, if moonclips offer such a tremendous advantage, why moonclip conversions aren't allowed. Its a whole lot easier and cheaper to have a cylinder cut for clips than to replace a whole gun and its carry gear. The extended slide stop on the Glocks is allowed on all models because its factory available on the 34/35, why can't this logic be extended to revolvers? Then we can all be a nice, happy, 6-shot family again. DanO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pact-Man Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I do not wish to discuss rules in this thread and if you are or are not using your moon clip gun. My purpose is to try to understand why Moon clips are gamey and why speed loaders are not. Both are equally quick in a practiced hand.Regards, I am not a revolver shooter, and have not timed anyone for comparison, but I would be willing to bet money that someone of a given skill level could reload a moonclip gun faster than a speedloader gun. If someone has timer data please present it, but my perception is that moonclips are faster to reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Pact-man, I believe that's been done, and by skill level as well - look at the new classification scores for ESR and SSR divisions. This data is not consistent with my friend RGS's and Redmists ""you-should-just-practice-more" opinion. There are (4) on-the-clock reloads in the IDPA Classifier. The data shows you gain between 1.0 - 1.5 second/reload with a 6-shot moonclip vs a 6-shot speedloader. If 8 or 7 shot revolvers were present in the test population, then the advantage is even greater. The 7 & 8 shot revolvers would then reflect times for (2) retention reloads, not empty cylinder reloads. Consider that there are somewhere between 8 - 20 reloads in a Major (8 stage minimum) match and the time adds up quickly within any given skill level. dcloudy777, Converting a "non-moonclip" gun to moonclips is allowed in the new rules. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Then why do we still need 2 revolver divsions? DanO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 RGS "Those that have shot revolvers for a while, have evolved from speed loaders to moon clips. Efficiency is one reason, but economy (shooting one caliber or two) is another. Is it gaming? Only to those not willing to evolve." Well, the other argument, Dr. Crick, is that fullmoon clips were designed for those who were genetically predisposed to fumbling speedloaders, right? Kinda like a training wheel...Antievolutionary, Ignorant, Mediocre (and SOing - Gary you'd better check my math on your score sheet, I'm not so sharp you know) and all in fun, Craig It is a shame, a serious question does not get a serious answer. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Gary, The bold print showed you answered your own (obvioulsy in your mind rhetorical) question. My serious response: In my opinion and based on the number of 625 & 646 & 610 shooters I encounter (~100 at a variety of locations) , the vast majority of said shooters picked thier equipment with the sole intention of gaining a competitive advantage in IDPA. Is that consistent with the rules as they existed? - yes. Does it show they selected thier equipment solely to gain a competitive advantage in IDPA? - yes. Is that less consistent with the Purpose stated on page 4 of the new, or old, rule book than someone using a 4" Model 66? - yes. Hence the term. Why are the new rules bad? They are equitable. If there weren't many of us "speedloader" shooters anyway, what have you lost? The shooters previously referred to get to, if they so choose, do more of what they like - buy new guns. The new rules do not force them to do this. But, being the ilk they are, they probably will. They always will. I simply don't understand the whining. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 Why are the new rules bad? Craig I can only answer this part. The rules are "bad" because they divided an already small group of shooters into 2 even smaller groups. The friendly competition between "revolver" shooters has been diminished. My question was, why is it gaming (in a derogatory sense). My answer is it is not a derogatory thing. All need to be familiar and accomplished in speed , moon clips and other revolver gear to consider themselves accomplished revolver shooters. To call those that use moon clips for regular carry and IDPA competition (As stated in the rules, it Is competition) Sand baggers, gamers, and other terms used as derogatory, has grown to the point of of being offensive. Many things posted on the Internet by many as good natured ribbing, come across as demeaning, derogatory, and argumentitive. Under the Guidelines of this forum, it states Attitude Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic or quarrelsome tones. That is one reason I post here and also why I have asked that this thread be locked. All the IDPA discussion has gotten ugly lately and I would like to apologize to my host for my part in it. I am back to lurk mode to learn. That is why I come here. Regards, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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