Another year, another hare-brained idea....

[Haraise]

Rifle: 14.5" barrel, scope or dot

Shotgun: 18.5" barrel and 8 round tube maximum

Pistol: 21 maximum magazine, 5" barrel

It'd be practical. That's the biggest pistol must people would consider carrying, a realistic practical shotgun and carbine.

[Jaycwebb]

Rifle: 14.5" barrel, scope or dot

Shotgun: 18.5" barrel and 8 round tube maximum

Pistol: 21 maximum magazine, 5" barrel

It'd be practical. That's the biggest pistol must people would consider carrying, a realistic practical shotgun and carbine.

So you're going to force everyone to buy an NFA weapon?

[dcloudy777]

Breaking the TACOPs division into several divisions based on the dot is an outstanding idea

TO Modified Division equipment:

Rifle - magnified scope, 1x dot, and a bipod (no mag limitation)

Pistol - 1x dot, no comp, 170mm mags

Shotgun - 1x dot, no comp, 12+1 before the buzzer

That division actually sounds really fun. My only "tweaks" would be 140mm pistol mags like Jaycwebb said, (I wouldn't hate the idea of the pistol dots having to be slide mounted, as well), and something to differentiate the rifle from open rifles (lose the bipod maybe?).

My initial thought was to add a "less equipment" division to split TO... but a "more equipment" division would do the same thing, and this division sounds pretty awesome.

Edited October 2, 2014 by dcloudy777

[Sterling White]

Hare-braned idea...... Probably getting ready to take some tomatoes in the face but here goes!

He-Man Class - All firearms in this class must meet the limited rules with the following restrictions:

All handguns must be .45 ACP or .45 GAP (.44 Magnum is also acceptable). Pistol magazines may not be loaded with more than ten(10) rounds.

Rifles must be .308 or 30.06.

Rifle magazines in HM Class shall not be loaded with more than twenty (20) rounds.

Rifle sights are limited to one set of irons or a 1x optic. Variable power scopes are NOT allowed in this class.

Shotguns in this class must be 12 gauge and pump action. Optics are not allowed. Capacity is restricted to 9 rounds.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Limited

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are either iron or 1x only. A variable optic is not allowed.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods, vertical foregrips that are rested on ground or props, mag pads/additions designed to enlarge the footprint of a single mag that are rested on the ground or props)

Rifle magazines are limited to traditional double stack mags with capacity of no more than 40 rounds. Cinched mags are not allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start and no more than a capacity of 10.

Heavy Irons - Rifle 308, 20 rounds max, iron sights or one 1x optic, pistol and shotgun same as described in Limited.

Limited Scope (TacOps)

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are limited to 1 variable optic and one set of iron sights.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines that are traditional double stack mags. There are NO “beta/C” or drum mags allowed in this class. Cinched mags are allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start.

Heavy Scope - Rifle 308, 1 optic and 1 set of offset irons; pistol and shotgun same as that in Limited Scope.

Modified Scope (Modified)

Pistols sights are limited to one set of irons or one 1x optic.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall.

Pistol barrel porting or compensator is not allowed.

Rifle sights are limited to one variable optic and one 1x optic sight.

Rifle external supporting devices are allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines are not restricted. (Beta C’s are allowed)

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are not restricted.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 13 rounds before the start.

Open Class

There is no limit on accessories except that shotgun speed loaders must have the primer relief cut.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Sterling White

[Haraise]

Rifle: 14.5" barrel, scope or dot

Shotgun: 18.5" barrel and 8 round tube maximum

Pistol: 21 maximum magazine, 5" barrel

It'd be practical. That's the biggest pistol must people would consider carrying, a realistic practical shotgun and carbine.

So you're going to force everyone to buy an NFA weapon?

I'm not sure if you're joking or lacking information on the NFA thing (almost all 14.5" barrels are pinned to be legal), but it's a good point. 16" maximum is probably best.

[Sterling White]

My thought for allowing 170mm double stack mags is that the Modified Division needs some big difference that closes the distance on Open while putting distance between it and TacOps. Modified would take a leap forward towards open.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Sterling White

[Haraise]

I still can't believe shotguns that can double as pole vaults are in something called "tactical." 18.5" and up to eight round tubes, would be right.

[dcloudy777]

I'm not sure if you're joking or lacking information on the NFA thing (almost all 14.5" barrels are pinned to be legal), but it's a good point. 16" maximum is probably best.

Not trying to be argumentative (I've been lobbying for a class like you described for a few years now), but I don't really see the point of a rifle barrel length limit in the first place. Unless you're shooting irons, or looooong ranges, a 20" or even longer isn't going to give you an advantage.

And a 20.5" barrel length max on shotguns would open up a lot more "factory" options, while still being "tactical". (hate that word).

Edited October 2, 2014 by dcloudy777

[Haraise]

I'm not sure if you're joking or lacking information on the NFA thing (almost all 14.5" barrels are pinned to be legal), but it's a good point. 16" maximum is probably best.

Not trying to be argumentative (I've been lobbying for a class like you described for a few years now), but I don't really see the point of a rifle barrel length limit in the first place. Unless you're shooting irons, or looooong ranges, a 20" or even longer isn't going to give you an advantage.

And a 20.5" barrel length max on shotguns would open up a lot more "factory" options, while still being "tactical". (hate that word).

It's the 'tactical' division. I didn't name it. But if it is actually supposed to be that? The M2 tactical version- 18.5. The Beretta 1301 tactical version- 18.5. The Remington 870 tactical- 18.5. I could keep naming tactical versions of shotguns all day, and they'd almost all be 18.5" barrels.

It would 'open up options,' but would go right back to making it 'not tactical.' Right now people are competing with field guns, 21-26". Tactical shotguns are 18.5", and that's what a tactical division would need to be, to actually be tactical. Otherwise it's just guns that are the complete opposite of what the division is claiming to be.

[dcloudy777]

The purpose, IMHO, of equipment divisions, is to separate equipment based on what advantages it offers, not by what it "looks like".

Given a mag tube restriction, a longer shotgun barrel offers very little advantage (and significant disadvantage).

[Sterling White]

Nothing prevents you from using a short barrel shotgun or rifle now in the current line up of divisions. Carving out a practical tactical division was debated many times. Take a look at the He-man division!

[Jaycwebb]

Rifle: 14.5" barrel, scope or dot

Shotgun: 18.5" barrel and 8 round tube maximum

Pistol: 21 maximum magazine, 5" barrel

It'd be practical. That's the biggest pistol must people would consider carrying, a realistic practical shotgun and carbine.

So you're going to force everyone to buy an NFA weapon?

I'm not sure if you're joking or lacking information on the NFA thing (almost all 14.5" barrels are pinned to be legal), but it's a good point. 16" maximum is probably best.

I was joking.

A limit on overall length is a valid argument ( I don't like it, but it has merit)

I just don't think forcing people to use something that's non standard to get there is a good idea. It'd be like saying your pistol mags have an overall limit of 140mm, and at least 30mm of it hase to be the basepad.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Jaycwebb

[TyinTX]

Hare-braned idea...... Probably getting ready to take some tomatoes in the face but here goes!

He-Man Class - All firearms in this class must meet the limited rules with the following restrictions:

All handguns must be .45 ACP or .45 GAP (.44 Magnum is also acceptable). Pistol magazines may not be loaded with more than ten(10) rounds.

Rifles must be .308 or 30.06.

Rifle magazines in HM Class shall not be loaded with more than twenty (20) rounds.

Rifle sights are limited to one set of irons or a 1x optic. Variable power scopes are NOT allowed in this class.

Shotguns in this class must be 12 gauge and pump action. Optics are not allowed. Capacity is restricted to 9 rounds.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Limited

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are either iron or 1x only. A variable optic is not allowed.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods, vertical foregrips that are rested on ground or props, mag pads/additions designed to enlarge the footprint of a single mag that are rested on the ground or props)

Rifle magazines are limited to traditional double stack mags with capacity of no more than 40 rounds. Cinched mags are not allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start and no more than a capacity of 10.

Heavy Irons - Rifle 308, 20 rounds max, iron sights or one 1x optic, pistol and shotgun same as described in Limited.

Limited Scope (TacOps)

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are limited to 1 variable optic and one set of iron sights.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines that are traditional double stack mags. There are NO “beta/C” or drum mags allowed in this class. Cinched mags are allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start.

Heavy Scope - Rifle 308, 1 optic and 1 set of offset irons; pistol and shotgun same as that in Limited Scope.

Modified Scope (Modified)

Pistols sights are limited to one set of irons or one 1x optic.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall.

Pistol barrel porting or compensator is not allowed.

Rifle sights are limited to one variable optic and one 1x optic sight.

Rifle external supporting devices are allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines are not restricted. (Beta C’s are allowed)

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are not restricted.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 13 rounds before the start.

Open Class

There is no limit on accessories except that shotgun speed loaders must have the primer relief cut

These seem to have a reasonable progression from division to division. Might accomplish the OP's original intent of splitting limited scope.

[Jaycwebb]

Hare-braned idea...... Probably getting ready to take some tomatoes in the face but here goes!

He-Man Class - All firearms in this class must meet the limited rules with the following restrictions:

All handguns must be .45 ACP or .45 GAP (.44 Magnum is also acceptable). Pistol magazines may not be loaded with more than ten(10) rounds.

I WOULD STICK TO THE STANDARD OF MAG LENGTH RESTRICTIONS, RATHER THAN ROUND COUNT. 140imo

Rifles must be .308 or 30.06.

Rifle magazines in HM Class shall not be loaded with more than twenty (20) rounds.

Rifle sights are limited to one set of irons or a 1x optic. Variable power scopes are NOT allowed in this class.

I WOULD ALLOW A VARIBALE POWERED SCOPE. ALLOW THE SHOOTER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEIR LONG RANGE POWER.

Shotguns in this class must be 12 gauge and pump action. Optics are not allowed. Capacity is restricted to 9 rounds.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Limited

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are either iron or 1x only. A variable optic is not allowed.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods, vertical foregrips that are rested on ground or props, mag pads/additions designed to enlarge the footprint of a single mag that are rested on the ground or props)

Rifle magazines are limited to traditional double stack mags with capacity of no more than 40 rounds. Cinched mags are not allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start and no more than a capacity of 10.

Heavy Irons - Rifle 308, 20 rounds max, iron sights or one 1x optic, pistol and shotgun same as described in Limited.

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT WE SHOULD CONSOLIDATE ALL HEAVY CLASSES INTO ONE.

Limited Scope (TacOps)

Pistols with custom or factory installed electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are NOT allowed in this class.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall length for single stacks, and shall not exceed 140mm OAL for staggered magazines.

Rifle sites are limited to 1 variable optic and one set of iron sights.

Rifle external supporting devices are not allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines that are traditional double stack mags. There are NO “beta/C” or drum mags allowed in this class. Cinched mags are allowed.

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are restricted to iron. No electronic sites are allowed.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 9 rounds before the start.

Heavy Scope - Rifle 308, 1 optic and 1 set of offset irons; pistol and shotgun same as that in Limited Scope.

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT WE SHOULD CONSOLIDATE ALL HEAVY CLASSES INTO ONE.

Modified Scope (Modified)

Pistols sights are limited to one set of irons or one 1x optic.

Pistol magazines shall not exceed 170mm overall.

Pistol barrel porting or compensator is not allowed.

Rifle sights are limited to one variable optic and one 1x optic sight.

Rifle external supporting devices are allowed in this class. (i.e. bipods or vertical foregrips that extend into bipods)

Rifle magazines are not restricted. (Beta C’s are allowed)

Rifle compensators are no larger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) allowed in this class.

Shotguns sights are not restricted.

Shotgun barrel porting or compensators are not allowed.

Shotguns capacity is restricted to no more than 13 rounds before the start.

Open Class

There is no limit on accessories except that shotgun speed loaders must have the primer relief cut.

My Comments are in Red

[Stlhead]

No matter how much I like sushi, and how delicious I think it is, there are some people that just don't care for it. Equipment division conversations are just like a group of 20 people deciding where to go out to eat. There may be 18 people's months watering for raw fish, the last two will always seem to want Olive Garden. You would think that by now I would have grown tired of the argument, more likely it seems I am the one that has a taste for endless salad and breadsticks. Thank the powers that be dry September is over and I can take comfort in the joy that beer provides.

[Haraise]

Rifle: 14.5" barrel, scope or dot

Shotgun: 18.5" barrel and 8 round tube maximum

Pistol: 21 maximum magazine, 5" barrel

It'd be practical. That's the biggest pistol must people would consider carrying, a realistic practical shotgun and carbine.

So you're going to force everyone to buy an NFA weapon?

I'm not sure if you're joking or lacking information on the NFA thing (almost all 14.5" barrels are pinned to be legal), but it's a good point. 16" maximum is probably best.

I was joking.

A limit on overall length is a valid argument ( I don't like it, but it has merit)

I just don't think forcing people to use something that's non standard to get there is a good idea. It'd be like saying your pistol mags have an overall limit of 140mm, and at least 30mm of it hase to be the basepad.

Well, I chose 21 because: It's the default limit of the 140mm mag in the STI and the CZ 75. Default, without killing lockback or fiddling with low profile followers/springs. You can get an M&P +4 extension, no problem. But 140mm is non-standard, and certainly no one carries with the tricks it takes to get the extra rounds in that limited space, so why not make something truly practical?

Hell, why not just 17 rounds as a limit, and everyone can run the stock mags without needing to mess with anything? That'd be practical (excepting the CZ/XD guys)... and much more low cost/realistic/reliable than having to play the how many rounds can I game into this length game.

Nothing prevents you from using a short barrel shotgun or rifle now in the current line up of divisions. Carving out a practical tactical division was debated many times. Take a look at the He-man division!

Nothing prevents me from using a S&W Shield, either. What's your point?

The He Man is the furthest thing from Practical. .45, .308 and a pump? Maybe in 1950 that was practical.

Practical tactical in 2014 is: double stack 9 sometimes with RMR on slide, Ar15 in 14.5/16" and one optic, and an M2/M4/1301 18.5" shotgun with 7 or 8 in the tube.

That's how it actually is. 'Tactical' division with a 15 round tube where you couldn't clear a room without bumping the other side is a laugh. Just because I can show up with equipment that will not win doesn't mean critique is invalid.

[Jaycwebb]

EVERYONE wants endless salad and breadsticks.

[Dan Sierpina]

If you can't find a division to PLAY in, do you all really think that some silly barrel length, mag length, optic magnification limit will make the slightest bit of difference?

Want a challenge, shoot Heavy / He Man anything! FNH had a total of 10 people in the combined heavy divisions, Irons had 1!!!! If components availability had been to old levels I seriously would have added 1 to the till.

He Man Nationals, (which I've shot all 3 of) is relegated to a "Regional" match, and I still travel about 2000 miles to go shoot it.

Geeze, 85% of shooters shoot Tac Optics and no better conversation comes out if than, we need another division with 6 people!

[Haraise]

I was thinking about this... how about instead of 'practical,' we call it 'defensive,' or 'nightstand?'

How many people want to try this with their bedside handgun and carbine/shotgun, then see the base division doesn't even look like anything they have?

How many people just want to get better at what they have, and get discouraged at being allowed in, but losing horribly?

Or who want to get good at what they'd go to a carbine class with, a defensive shotgun class, what they count on to use, and don't want to drop 4-7k on a completely different racing setup?

[Stlhead]

I vote we just chuck it all and go back to a single division, run what you brung, heads up scored. Then we will see what people really want to shoot. It would be the best thing to happen to scope tac in a long time.

[Dan Sierpina]

I vote we just chuck it all and go back to a single division, run what you brung, heads up scored. Then we will see what people really want to shoot. It would be the best thing to happen to scope tac in a long time.

Pistol matches used to be that way. I'll play 3 gun that way too!

[alma]

I like that most people are shooting the same division and would vote for fewer divisions instead of more. It still have the impression that shooting in a division other than TO is usually because you are trying to avoid competing against the talent that is stacked there.

[dcloudy777]

I vote we just chuck it all and go back to a single division, run what you brung, heads up scored. Then we will see what people really want to shoot. It would be the best thing to happen to scope tac in a long time.

Well, it would be a boon to Mark at XRail and R&R, Tooth and Nail, and Firebird....

Actually, if it weren't for the shotgun (really just high shell-count shotgun stages), heads up all "open" would probably be fairly viable.

Heavy, as much as I hate to admit it because I really enjoyed shooting it, is dead. The "split" into HO/HI effectively killed it.

Edited October 3, 2014 by dcloudy777

[bmiller]

This will not be popular with the He-Men, but since we are preparing our Christmas lists, I would like to see .40 major legal in Heavy Metal. I also would like to see 1 hit anywhere on paper to neutralize on paper in Heavy. I would probably switch to heavy if these were incorporated. But all that does is pull a limited shooter from an all ready small division . Ok, bracing myself for the onslaught of rotten fruit!

[Stlhead]

I like that most people are shooting the same division and would vote for fewer divisions instead of more. It still have the impression that shooting in a division other than TO is usually because you are trying to avoid competing against the talent that is stacked there.

I find the second statement in your post insulting, and would challenge you to back up your assertion with some sort of logic. People choose what division to compete in for any number of reasons, each personal to themselves. While there may be a small percentage of folks who think a smaller division will be easier to dominate, the guys I shoot with in limited do so for different reasons. I shoot limited because I prefer non-magnified rifle, I am more comfortable shooting 1x or irons. I have buddy who shot limited last year because he was frustrated with his search for the perfect open shotgun, and wanted to stay in the same division as someone else on the team. I know of guys who shoot limited because they have the equipment and don't see any need to get new. And those are just the reasons that I know a few people shoot limited, my buddies that shoot open have a whole different set of reasons, and not a single one is because the talent pool is shallower.

My favorite division to shoot in is HM. I like shooting my M-14, and I also like rocking a 625 at a 3 gun match. I don't shoot HM much if at all anymore for the exact opposite reason you are asserting. There are not enough people at the matches I go to that shoot HM. I would prefer to shoot in a larger division, with more people competing, and stronger competitors to challenge me, but I will not completely abandon the parts of the game that I enjoy the most. If limited where to be eliminated, I would probably alternate shooting HM, and limited gear, or some mix, in whatever division the gear was legal, even at a disadvantage, I put my personal enjoyment above where I end up on the score sheet. Fortunately right now there is a division for me to play in that allows me to enjoy the equipment I use and not be at a disadvantage.

The smaller divisions are tougher than you think, win a few major matches in open or limited before you infer we are a bunch of pussies for not shooting scope tac.