When do you upgrade guns?

[hercster]

Well I have only been shooting USPSA for about 9 months so many others have more experience than I do, but for major I think it will be easier with a 2011 or some other gun with some weight. I am a fan of the M&P pistols its what I shot IDPA and steel with and did pretty well. A friend of mine advised me against the M&P for limited and I went that direction anyway for a minute. After shooting a 2011 vs the M&P it did not take long to figure out I made a mistake. I still love my Pro in 9mm but for 40 the STI Edge I ended up buying is much more comfortable to shoot and I shoot it faster. Also with the 2011 guns I have shot they are in my hands just more accurate. I completely understand the dilemma of performance vs cost and 2011 guns and mags are not cheap but if you are wanting one it is worth the money not only to satisfy that desire but you will also be buying a top notch gun to learn and progress with.

Don't overlook the possibilities in the Tanfoglio lineup. There are many here far more qualified than me here but I did something recently that worked very well. As it happens, my project was on a Production gun but that might not be a bad idea for you at your stage in the shooting games. Coming off of an excellent experience buying a Tanfoglio Limited Custom Xtreme to serve as my Standard gun in IPSC, I wanted a 9mm for Production and other games but wanted to spend less while sacrificing nothing. So I bought a Tanfo Limited Pro in 9mm for less than $1100 Canadian. Then the fun started as I wanted Xtreme performance and feel while learning the gun more intimately. I found all the Xtreme parts I needed here in Canada and all the encouragement and information I needed right on this forum. Many hours of fun later and after spending about $400 on parts, my Limited Custom sings! I shot an IPSC match today and it performed perfectly. I was less than perfect but possibly shot the most satisfying match of the season here in Canada. In about a month I will head for my winter HQ in Texas and continue the fun using the gun for USPSA Production, Steel Challenge and 3Gun. The Tanfos are beefy guns that are very well behaved. Shooting 9mm minor will make it easier to learn your way around and should produce very satisfying results until you decide to move it up a notch. YMMV but this approach has worked very well for me.

Here are the two guns. The Limited Pro cost me $1000 less than the Xtreme.

[SWprotected]

Those are sweet looking blasters.

[ThePeanutGallery]

XDM's have a lot of muzzle flip...

As far as ease to shoot and score well with, once properly setup . . .

CZ/Tanfoglio>2011>M&P>Glock>XDM

This list would be entirely different for a carry/duty pistol, I'm strictly talking competition.

That all being said, Tanfoglios use crappy, break prone parts. 2011's are expensive and need tuning. I really like the CZ Tactical Sport, great gun for limited, with it and proper setup (even with a completely stock trigger, which is comparatively wonderful), you can not currently blame any loss on your gun. I would not say the same about the XDM.

What makes you say that a CZ/Tanfoglio is superior to the 2011 platform? Just price?

[hercster]

XDM's have a lot of muzzle flip...

As far as ease to shoot and score well with, once properly setup . . .

CZ/Tanfoglio>2011>M&P>Glock>XDM

This list would be entirely different for a carry/duty pistol, I'm strictly talking competition.

That all being said, Tanfoglios use crappy, break prone parts. 2011's are expensive and need tuning. I really like the CZ Tactical Sport, great gun for limited, with it and proper setup (even with a completely stock trigger, which is comparatively wonderful), you can not currently blame any loss on your gun. I would not say the same about the XDM.

What makes you say that a CZ/Tanfoglio is superior to the 2011 platform? Just price?

Others are much better qualified to comment than I am but I think it's a mistake to accept that Tanfoglios are built with crappy parts. There are some choice to be made including the Xtreme line. I expect that many would get very good service from a Tanfoglio and then, when necessary, upgrade worn parts with the premium versions. In any case, I think the Tanfoglio offers a very shootable alternative to the more costly 2011's. Of course there are differences but I for one like the balance and feel of the Tanfoglios particularly in action where the lower bore axis has its advantages.

There are people here than know both platforms well. Would I be correct in saying that the Tanfoglio pistols would serve many shooters very well. I think it is also fair to say that time will tell how well the Xtreme pistols perform under hard use over time.

[kneelingatlas]

What makes you say that a CZ/Tanfoglio is superior to the 2011 platform? Just price?

Others are much better qualified to comment than I am but I think it's a mistake to accept that Tanfoglios are built with crappy parts. There are some choice to be made including the Xtreme line. I expect that many would get very good service from a Tanfoglio and then, when necessary, upgrade worn parts with the premium versions. In any case, I think the Tanfoglio offers a very shootable alternative to the more costly 2011's. Of course there are differences but I for one like the balance and feel of the Tanfoglios particularly in action where the lower bore axis has its advantages.

There are people here than know both platforms well. Would I be correct in saying that the Tanfoglio pistols would serve many shooters very well. I think it is also fair to say that time will tell how well the Xtreme pistols perform under hard use over time.

As many of you know, I am a big fan of the CZ75 platform pistols but something CHA-LEE said a few months back is something which cannot be ignored when comparing the two platforms:

You can't make a generic comparison between internationally distributed Tanfoglio branded pistols and USA distributed EAA or Tanfoglio branded pistols. These two brands of pistols are the same from a mechanical perspective with the actual differences being minor variations in slide cuts, grip panels, naming, and things like that. But the differences between the two companies who sell and support these brands is HUGE. Tanfoglio actually cares about the competition shooting sports and has very good customer service. EAA is the polar opposite of Tanfoglio in these two areas.

Since EAA is the "Gate Keeper" on all EAA or Tanfoglio branded pistols coming into the US we are pretty much screwed in the United States. For me, a big part of it comes down to wanting to support or represent a company that could care less about the competition shooting sports. There is no question that the EAA or Tanfoglio pistols are viable options for competition use, they are competitive. But do you want to be flying the flag of a company or brand that could care less about the shooting sports? Look at all of the 1911/2011 based companies that invest tens of thousands of dollars each year supporting the shooting sports. These are also the same companies that will bend over backwards to support their products being used in the shooting sports. These are important facts that shouldn't be ignored. Personally I am choosing to move away from the EAA/Tanfoglio brand of pistols for competition use for these two facts alone.

Comparing prices of the guns internationally is also irrelevant because there are many other variables that need to be factored into the total price of the gun. Importation Expenses, Customs Fees, Taxes, Shipping, and Accounting are all factors that go into determining what the final price of the pistol is going to be. That and every country has different rules or regulations around these expenses. So you can't simply say that a pistol imported from the US should cost the same as one imported from Europe.

Edited September 29, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[hercster]

Our Canadian Tanfos come through a distributor that clearly cares about the shooting sports. Sean Hansen who heads up Freedom Ventures is not only prominent in IPSC circles but is also a very competitive shooter himself. Of course we also suffer from distance but I have no doubt that Sean represents our needs very well when dealing with Tanfoglio. We are also a smaller market for any manufacturer so having good people in the pipeline is even more important. I've tried to communicate with EAA on several occasions and at this point am batting about one for three or four. I understand that my American friends don't do much better. It's too bad because I see a lot of value in both my Tanfo pistols. I'll set up a small stock of important parts very soon.

[Whoops!]

To answer all questions: The slide in frame design of the CZ while still utilizing the locking lug system of the 1911 make it a superior platform for shootability. There are some who will argue with me, but in my mind the physics of it is hard to argue with. It's also very nice to have the all steel frame. Sure, you can put a steel grip on a 2011 now, but they usually come with the plastic. The plastic flexes and doesn't add much recoil canceling weight.

The Tanfoglios use terrible parts regardless of the model. This is coming from a Gold Custom owner who's barrel apparently peened itself to death after approximately 5000 rounds, the wear was equal on all 3 lockup surfaces and on the slide. This is coming from someone who knows that Grauffel replaces the barrel on his guns way too often for comfort. I also know random gunsmiths who strongly recommend against Tanfoglios in general. I think it's quite fair to say they use crappy parts. This is all to say nothing of the smaller parts which tend to break even more often (The first thing to come to mind is the slide stop). I know of tons of other parts that competitive shooters have issues with. In general, think of them as CZs with half the quality. Unless you're going entirely after market, you're pretty much SOL. Again, in my opinion and practical experience, there will be plenty who disagree . . . However, just look at the post above mine, when was the last time you had to communicate with the factory about your gun? Tanfoglio owners tend to become accustomed to the factory as long as the warranty is in effect.

I know much of this is hearsay, but again, my practical experience with the highest end model they make says they suck.

If you're into open guns, A v12 Gold Custom will convince you to get a 2011 pretty damn quick. That is unless of course you have factory backing throwing spare parts at you whenever needed.

However, in terms of sheer shooting performance, the Tanfoglio is better.

That being said, Tanfoglios are also some of the most beautiful guns on the market. I've never dabbled with the regular Witness models and don't know how they fair.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Whoops!

[hercster]

There are a few Tanfo owners on these forums that have fleets that rival Fedex. I await their comments specifically on the durability and parts topics.