Single-pass RT 1200 brass processing on an XL650?

[tastic]

Hi,

I am contemplating the purchase of an RT 1200 trimmer for .308 and .223 but would prefer to only have one run through the tumbler and one run through the press. I currently use a Harvey Deprimer to pop spent primers out of cases off-press, then wet tumble. I have a feeling that doing brass processing on the press would be quicker as I could stuff a bunch of cases into the case feeder and go from there, not to mention decap and trim in the same batch. However, I'm hearing that the RT 1200 has its own die that "kinda" sizes the cases, which makes sense as it'd have to hold the case firmly while trimming. This would be a dirty case as it hasn't been through the tumbler yet. Would this pose a problem? I wouldn't want the RT1200 "kinda-sizer" to get scratched or whatever.

The setup would, ideally, be something like:

Processing toolhead station 1=decap, 2=empty, 3=RT1200 because it is omghuge, 4=empty, 5=empty

Wet tumble

Loading toolhead station 1=size, 2=powder, 3=check, 4=seat, 5=crimp

Does anyone have this setup or similar? How is it working out?

[carlosa]

I do a similar process except I use. Dillon resize decap die on the first station and a trimmer on the second to last station.

Nothing else in between.

In the second head I have a belling die, powder drop, seating die, and crimp.

Works good. I also wet tumble in between.

Doing the resizing before cleaning makes allot of sence. This way you can heavily lube the brass before cleaning and the cleaning process will remove all that junk away.

Non off the other steps really benefit or need lube.

Edited September 9, 2014 by carlosa

[carlosa]

Also keep in mind you want to trim after you resize. Sence resizing will further stretch the brass.

[rjacobs]

Dillon trim dies dont "kind of" size the case, they do completely size the case body, however they leave a tight neck due to no expander ball. You need something in the last station like a mandrel neck expander die(i use the 21st Century Shooting version) to set neck tension.

You dont want to run a dirty case into the sizing die, you risk screwing up your brass and your die.

[Brassaholic13]

The setup would, ideally, be something like:

Processing toolhead station 1=decap, 2=empty, 3=RT1200 because it is omghuge, 4=empty, 5=empty

Wet tumble

Loading toolhead station 1=size, 2=powder, 3=check, 4=seat, 5=crimp

Here's the issue. If EVERY case has not been passed through the same chamber, then every case is going to have different pressure required for resizing. Now, add variable amounts of lube to the cases. Different resizing pressures will cause different amounts of flex in the press ram. Different amounts of press flex lead to deviations in the cutting length.

How precisely you want your cases resized and trimmed will determine your order of operations.

[The Donald]

The setup would, ideally, be something like:

Processing toolhead station 1=decap, 2=empty, 3=RT1200 because it is omghuge, 4=empty, 5=empty

Wet tumble

Loading toolhead station 1=size, 2=powder, 3=check, 4=seat, 5=crimp

Here's the issue. If EVERY case has not been passed through the same chamber, then every case is going to have different pressure required for resizing. Now, add variable amounts of lube to the cases. Different resizing pressures will cause different amounts of flex in the press ram. Different amounts of press flex lead to deviations in the cutting length.

How precisely you want your cases resized and trimmed will determine your order of operations.

I've heard of people partially resizing/decapping, then finish size and trimming, then neck sizing there brass.

[carlosa]

Dillon trim die doesn't resize all the way to the base. You will still need a full length resizing die for semi auto.

Resizing dirty brass, has no effect on brass that I have ever seen, but i could just be missing something.

I'm my opinion you most definitely want your brass fully resized before you trim.

If your loading on a progressive press like the 650, don't over think it. There will always be some odd variation some where to drive you insane.

Seating is the most obvious example.

You can make some awesome sub MOA ammo (if your rifle is up to it) with way less steps.

If ultimate precision is your game, then try a single stage press.

Now I'm not a bench rest shooter.

I load my match grade ammo for 3 gun.

Where I'm shooting at 12" plates at 500 yards.

Some my idea of match grade maybe different from yours.

[Brassaholic13]

The setup would, ideally, be something like:

Processing toolhead station 1=decap, 2=empty, 3=RT1200 because it is omghuge, 4=empty, 5=empty

Wet tumble

Loading toolhead station 1=size, 2=powder, 3=check, 4=seat, 5=crimp

Here's the issue. If EVERY case has not been passed through the same chamber, then every case is going to have different pressure required for resizing. Now, add variable amounts of lube to the cases. Different resizing pressures will cause different amounts of flex in the press ram. Different amounts of press flex lead to deviations in the cutting length.

How precisely you want your cases resized and trimmed will determine your order of operations.

I've heard of people partially resizing/decapping, then finish size and trimming, then neck sizing there brass.

I decap/resize on the first go-round. Then trim and neck size on the second to make sure neck tension is correct. Then it's on to loading.

[Religious Shooter]

You have to lube the cases. Otherwise it will get stuck in the die.

Lubing dirty cases then sizing them... I think most people don't want to do that.

Accept the suck.

Clean the cases. Lube them. Resize and trim. Clean them again. Then load them.

[carlosa]

You have to lube the cases. Otherwise it will get stuck in the die.

Lubing dirty cases then sizing them... I think most people don't want to do that.

Accept the suck.

Clean the cases. Lube them. Resize and trim. Clean them again. Then load them.

Nah....

I'm good thanks

[StealthyBlagga]

How much work is it really to tumble twice? It is just time and a little electricity. Hell, you already wet tumble, which is ridiculously pedantic nonsense that I have no time for. Putting dirty crap in your press will only spread mess everywhere with almost no time or effort saving .

I am THE laziest guy in the world when it comes to rifle reloading, and here is what I do:

First, I tumble for several hours to remove all the range dirt etc. Next I lube the brass (home made lube in a gallon ziploc bag). Now I am ready for...

Brass Prep Toolhead

A1) Deprime (RCBS Neck Sizer die) - reforms the neck with great uniformity

A2) Empty

A3) Full length resize and trim (Dillon RT1200/RapidTrim die, turned down 1/8 turn past bottom)

A4) Empty

A5) Flare (Lee Universal Expander die, just the minimum of flare to ease bullet insertion)

... then I tumble the brass to remove the lube and flash from the trim operation - this only takes about 10 minutes - then I swage the primer pockets if necessary (Dillon SuperSwage) and then run through the 650 using...

Loading Toolhead

B1) Deprime to remove any polishing media from the flash hole (Lee universal depriming die)

B2) Prime and dispense powder (Dillon powder die)

B3) Powder Check (Dillon, with a modified sensor tip so it does not hang up on the narrow case neck)

B4) Seat bullet (RCBS seating die)

B5) Crimp (Lee Factory Crimp die set for a very light crimp)

Overall, this arrangement produces very good, consistent and reliable ammo for me (and I tried a LOT of different arrangements before settling on this approach). It shoots sub MOA comfortably at 200 yards.

Note that you may have to turn the RT1200 trim die down up to 1/4 turn past bottom (I went about 1/8 of a turn). This forces the press to cam over center and enables you to consistently get the correct amount of sizing.

If you are using a Powder Check die, modify the sensing tip per the photo below (left=unmodifed, right=modified):

Edited September 10, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[carlosa]

How much work is it really to tumble twice? It is just time and a little electricity. Hell, you already wet tumble, which is ridiculously pedantic nonsense that I have no time for. Putting dirty crap in your press will only spread mess everywhere with almost no time or effort saving .

I am THE laziest guy in the world when it comes to rifle reloading, and here is what I do:

First, I tumble for several hours to remove all the range dirt etc. Next I lube the brass (home made lube in a gallon ziploc bag). Now I am ready for...

Brass Prep Toolhead

A1) Deprime (RCBS Neck Sizer die) - reforms the neck with great uniformity

A2) Empty

A3) Full length resize and trim (Dillon RT1200/RapidTrim die, turned down 1/8 turn past bottom)

A4) Empty

A5) Flare (Lee Universal Expander die, just the minimum of flare to ease bullet insertion)

... then I tumble the brass to remove the lube and flash from the trim operation - this only takes about 10 minutes - then I swage the primer pockets if necessary (Dillon SuperSwage) and then run through the 650 using...

Loading Toolhead

B1) Deprime to remove any polishing media from the flash hole (Lee universal depriming die)

B2) Prime and dispense powder (Dillon powder die)

B3) Powder Check (Dillon, with a modified sensor tip so it does not hang up on the narrow case neck)

B4) Seat bullet (RCBS seating die)

B5) Crimp (Lee Factory Crimp die set for a very light crimp)

Overall, this arrangement produces very good, consistent and reliable ammo for me (and I tried a LOT of different arrangements before settling on this approach). It shoots sub MOA comfortably at 200 yards.

Note that you may have to turn the RT1200 trim die down up to 1/4 turn past bottom (I went about 1/8 of a turn). This forces the press to cam over center and enables you to consistently get the correct amount of sizing.

If you are using a Powder Check die, modify the sensing tip per the photo below (left=unmodifed, right=modified):

Spread the mess to what?

my prep tool head only has 2 stations decap/resize and trim...

Everything else is done in the second tool head after cleaning the brass...

Tumble all you want, its not that big of a deal.

Resizing and trimming before cleaning also means you can case check your Brass to catch any thing thats out of Spec sooner, and toss it.

If you wet tumble your Brass like I do, you definitely want to deprime first to get nice clean primer holes... You might as well resize and trim then. No point on wet tumbleing brass twice.

But hey different strokes for different folks...

[Religious Shooter]

Nah....

I'm good thanks

My post was directed at the OP. I think Stealthy's post was also to the OP.

You do whatever you want.

[carlosa]

Ah sorry I was the one that said resize before you clean, which you guys seem to hate so much.

This is why I figured you were talking to me

[carlosa]

In all seriousness I would like to know what the real danger to resizing untumbled brass is.

I run a carbide resizing die so I don't see how I could possibly damage my dies.

As far as damaging the brass goes I really think there would have to be something more than the usual carbon build up from fireing.

I would apriciated the education on the subject.

Some detail on the dangers or downside to this practice would be greatly apriciated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loads this way with good results.

[rjacobs]

In all seriousness I would like to know what the real danger to resizing untumbled brass is.

I run a carbide resizing die so I don't see how I could possibly damage my dies.

As far as damaging the brass goes I really think there would have to be something more than the usual carbon build up from fireing.

I would apriciated the education on the subject.

Some detail on the dangers or downside to this practice would be greatly apriciated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loads this way with good results.

While I dont know of any "proof" I think its one of those things that gets passed from generation to generation and is then taken as gospel. Will you run into issues? I dont know, I dont personally put dirty brass into any of my dies so I will likely never find out. It also depends on what you shoot IMO. Brass from my bolt guns come out of the gun pretty damn clean and would most likely cause no issues. Brass from my AR's come out fairly dirty. Brass from my suppressed guns comes out FILTHY and no way do I want to get carbon build up in my dies because of it. Another factor might be are you neck sizing only or full body sizing? I could see a lot of issues with carbon build up when full length body sizing, but just using a bushing die to neck size and bump the shoulder, eh, probably not to many issues.

Do you tumble pistol brass before you load it? If you are ok with sending dirty rifle brass into your dies, why tumble pistol brass before loading? Same thing right? I know a guy that shoots revolvers almost exclusively and he has said he never tumbles his brass, ever, because it comes out of the gun fairly clean.

I dont think its a matter of short term damage(although I am sure it COULD happen), but long term carbon build up in the dies which would/could lead to your brass then not being in spec and causing further issues down the road(might take 10k rounds for enough build up to occur, I dont know).

I dont do all the crazy things I see a lot of guys doing for brass prep, but I do like to start with clean brass.

[Brassaholic13]

In all seriousness I would like to know what the real danger to resizing untumbled brass is.

I run a carbide resizing die so I don't see how I could possibly damage my dies.

As far as damaging the brass goes I really think there would have to be something more than the usual carbon build up from fireing.

I would apriciated the education on the subject.

Some detail on the dangers or downside to this practice would be greatly apriciated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loads this way with good results.

Since I do this for a living, I can tell you there's no danger. If you chuck the first case into a Sheridan "windowed" case gauge, use that die for 500k rounds, then chuck another into the same case gauge, the first piece and the 500k piece will fit just the same. Brass, and any minor dirt that's on it, is NOT going to hurt carbide.

[carlosa]

Thanks fellows, I appreciate the info

[tastic]

In all seriousness I would like to know what the real danger to resizing untumbled brass is.

I run a carbide resizing die so I don't see how I could possibly damage my dies.

As far as damaging the brass goes I really think there would have to be something more than the usual carbon build up from fireing.

I would apriciated the education on the subject.

Some detail on the dangers or downside to this practice would be greatly apriciated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loads this way with good results.

Since I do this for a living, I can tell you there's no danger. If you chuck the first case into a Sheridan "windowed" case gauge, use that die for 500k rounds, then chuck another into the same case gauge, the first piece and the 500k piece will fit just the same. Brass, and any minor dirt that's on it, is NOT going to hurt carbide.

I love those Sheridan slotted case gauges -- I have one for .223 and recently got a .308 one.

Do you find the dies require more frequent cleaning when going this route? I assume a little Break-Free will fix things right up, yesno?

[StealthyBlagga]

Where I shoot, fired brass often ends up with sand/fine dust on it. The sand will be pretty hard (quartz etc.), harder than regular steel, and so I would expect it will scratch/score some non-carbide die components. The die in turn is harder than brass, ergo all future brass will get scored. It seems plausible to me that such scoring could result in shorter brass life, feeding/extraction issues, perhaps even case failure. Do I have proof of this? No. But tumbling to remove this dust before starting the loading process eliminates all this uncertainty for me... seems like a lot of upside for not much downside. You guys do what you want - it is your ammo, your guns and your choice.

Edited September 11, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[dauntedfuture]

About the only way I can think of a way around tumbling two times is to use Hornady one shot as lube and leave it on the cases. It says you can, I have, cases do dry and are not sticky. I don't think it works as well as Dillon lube.

I run a girud trimmer now and im thinking about a RT1500 for .223 and .308. Right now I clean brass, size in station one on a 650, clean brass again. Trim on girud, remove crimp. Second pass in 650 is prime and Lyman M-die, powder, check powder, seat bullet and possibly crimp. A RT1500 would make things faster.

I have read a few articles about the benefits of neck sizing before FL to reduce runout. When I get home ill give that a try.

Edited September 10, 2014 by dauntedfuture

[Brassaholic13]

In all seriousness I would like to know what the real danger to resizing untumbled brass is.

I run a carbide resizing die so I don't see how I could possibly damage my dies.

As far as damaging the brass goes I really think there would have to be something more than the usual carbon build up from fireing.

I would apriciated the education on the subject.

Some detail on the dangers or downside to this practice would be greatly apriciated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that loads this way with good results.

Since I do this for a living, I can tell you there's no danger. If you chuck the first case into a Sheridan "windowed" case gauge, use that die for 500k rounds, then chuck another into the same case gauge, the first piece and the 500k piece will fit just the same. Brass, and any minor dirt that's on it, is NOT going to hurt carbide.

I love those Sheridan slotted case gauges -- I have one for .223 and recently got a .308 one.

Do you find the dies require more frequent cleaning when going this route? I assume a little Break-Free will fix things right up, yesno?

All of my brass is once fired from military bases. Some bases have outdoor concrete ranges where the brass is pretty clean, other bases sell brass that has been laying in dirt. Some cases I come across are literally dirt packed, in which I wet tumble them without pins for 30 minutes just to get the mud out so I can deprime/resize them. So before I can do anything, every case gets mechanically sorted (dont ask for photos/video, it's a proprietary piece).

The resizing/trim die gets cleaned every 4 hours of use, or about 8k cases. I do nothing more than hit it with brake cleaner and cleaning patches, then re-lube it with my Lanolin/Iso Alky mix (1:8 ratio). All the cases get lubed with the same mix, from an old Windex bottle that I keep the lube in. I follow the same procedure every time. I use an old Bucket of Bullets tub and fill it level with brass, twice. It gets dumped into a 2.5 gallon car wash bucket. Shake the Windex bottle of Lano/Alky mix 5 times (it settles). 3 sprays from the bottle then shake the snot out of the brass. Repeat, then dump the bucket into the Dillon collator and run for deprime/resize. I've never had a stuck case, nor ever had scratches on the brass.

From there the brass goes back through the press for proper length trimming and neck sizing. Finally, on to a four hour wet tumble with pins and a 24 hour air dry aided by fans and a dehumidifier (my basement stays at 45% humidity year round).

*ETA* I have had scratches on brass from a junk CH4D die... Will never use their crap again thanks to the owner's attitude telling me my brass was the issue and I should scrap the brass. Yeah, like I'm going to recycle 2-tons of once fired brass.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Brassaholic13

[Cap]

Mine is set to deprime and size on 1, two is empty but has a swagger in place cof the priming mechanism. The last station has another resizer that just opens the case mouth a bit and knocks the burrs off. Works well for me