need help: low recoil load not right

[boomerhc9]

ok, disaster averted. I found my bullet puller (recent move) and pulled 5 bullets just for a quick comparison.

speer: 1.127 oal .379 crimp at case mouth. .3555 bullet diameter at dent line/ crimp line

RP: 1.128 oal .378 .3565

fc: 1.127 oal .379 .356

fc: 1.127 oal .378 .357

rp: 1.1285 oal .379 .356

visualy, the bullet pulled from the speer case has slightly heavier than minor indentation where case was crimped

rp: a little heavier indentation, definitely defined indent.

first FC: lightest indentation of all pulled bullets, indent band dissapears for about 1/4 of diameter of bullet

second FC: second least indentation. very slightly more than first FC bullet

Last RP: third slightest indentation. band just a bit more deep than second RP.

none of the bands appear to have damaged the bullets, of cracked the plating. Much lighter than the first time I found out I was over crimping. I know a picture would be better so you all can see for yourself. I plan on working on getting a good picture for everyone tomorrow night after work. will try to get it posted here as soon as possible.

I guess the first question should be, should there be any marks with this load?

[boomerhc9]

You don't pull bullets with pliers! you get a bullet puller. are you using a taper crimp Or a factory crimp die? If you are using a factory crimp die, get rid of it and get a taper crimp die.

as of right now, I've been using the seater die with the seater stem removed, I heard that was the same as a taper crimp die.

[Justsomeguy]

If you have a 3 die set, you have a decapping die, a seating die, and a crimping die. The belling is, of course, done with the "powder through" die which is part of the powder measure with progressive reloaders. Some die sets are only 2 dies, and combine the seating and crimping operation. I don't like those as they are harder to control accurately, and most of them also "roll crimp" if you go down far enough, and that's a bad idea with semi-auto rounds. So... if you have a 3 die set (hopefully Dillon) your seating die is not really a crimping die, and frankly I don't know if it will crimp or "straighten" out the bell much, or if to any degree since it is meant to force the bullet down to the proper OAL without interfering with that process. If you have a 2 die set that combines seating and crimping, then the die would still have to be adjusted for the correct height in the press or you will still be over or under crimping.

The correct crimp is relative to the brass and bullet. If you measure the thickness of the brass at the case mouth, you double that measurement and add the bullet diameter to get the absolute perfect crimp (which is no crimp at all, but no bell left either). That is, if the brass measures .011 thick, you double that to .022 then add the bullet diameter... say a nominal .355 and you get .377. Not all the brass will be the same, and though close, not all the bullets will be the same either. However, they will still work even with slight variations of .001 or even 002" (but personally I wouldn't like that and would try to eliminate it at .002" variation). If you are getting readings on the bullet diameter that vary more than .001" then you could have some accuracy problems especially with lead, coated lead, or plated bullets because you will not be able to properly control the crimp.

The taper crimp is meant to assure good feeding in an auto pistol. It does not hold the bullet in place. Proper sizing holds the bullet by case tension on the slug. If you under crimp, you could run into reliability issues as the mouth of the case will hit on parts of the barrel and prevent clean feeding (and in extreme examples not allow the case to enter the chamber completely). If you over crimp, you will run into accuracy issues as the bullet is being smashed by the case in the die and that is not a good thing as it will be too small for the bore, damaged and not fly straight, could cut the coating or plating on certain types of bullets and again cause it to lose said coating or plating (maybe even leaving some behind, though that would be rare). So... crimp is important, and more important for lead, coated lead, and plated bullets as more things can go wrong when using them.

I hope this helped.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Justsomeguy

[boomerhc9]

hey Justsomeguy. Yes, i'm kind of thinking this is a crimp issue. I have the lee 4 die set that includes the sizing/decapping die, expander powder through die, the seater die (which I remove the stem from, and use to remove belling) and a crimping die.

I have noticed that no matter what I do when reloading, there is usually a large range of overall lengths, when seating. So I make several adjustments, then seat again, untill all rounds are the same length.

[truborshooter]

What kind of 'large range of overall lengths' are you getting +/- .002, .005, .010?

Your above post #26 with a variation of 1.127-1.1285 is insignificant

Your caliper is only good for +/- .001 on a good day

The only dimension a 10 cent bullet will have half a chance of being the same bullet to bullet is outer diameter .355 or .356

Measure a bunch of brand new bullets for oal, especially hollow points.

Since cases vary in wall thickness, times fired, amount of springiness both in the chamber when fired and in the sizing die

the amount of seating pressure required to insert a bullet into an undersized brass case varies.

When the seating pressure varies so does the deformation on the bullet tip.

Re seating a crimped round will change the oal dimension but is it really seating deeper or just deforming the tip more or a combination of the two.

Finally, the only importance of oal is chambering, pressure, feeding and magazinability.

The only thing the barrel sees is outer diameter of the bullet and jump from the case into the leade of the barrel.

Since most rounds are well off the beginning of the rifling of their barrel .002-.005 doesn't really mean much in terms of the jump.

If your barrel can take a round oal of 1.155 and you set your cases to 1.127, what's a couple of thousands?

[boomerhc9]

What kind of 'large range of overall lengths' are you getting +/- .002, .005, .010?

Your above post #26 with a variation of 1.127-1.1285 is insignificant

Your caliper is only good for +/- .001 on a good day

well, with powder in primed cases, during initial seating, still with the belled case mouth, about 160 will be 1.135, about 10 to 15 will be 1.149 and about 30 will be 1.124

like said, this is before my second round of seating deapth adjustment, and before removing the belling from the case mouth.

[boomerhc9]

Since cases vary in wall thickness, times fired, amount of springiness both in the chamber when fired and in the sizing die

the amount of seating pressure required to insert a bullet into an undersized brass case varies.

When the seating pressure varies so does the deformation on the bullet tip.

Re seating a crimped round will change the oal dimension but is it really seating deeper or just deforming the tip more or a combination of the two.

yes, I can sometimes feel a slight bit more resistance when seating some that end up being longer. sometimes there will be a slight ring of coloring on the bullet nose, but the nose is still smooth to the touch, with no crushing.

after I get all the rounds to between 1.124 and 1.129, then I back out my lee seating die, remove the seating stem, then "crimp" or remove the belling, adjusting a little at a time until I get the bell out on all rounds.

[RDA]

Finally, the only importance of oal is chambering, pressure, feeding and magazinability.

Cool, a new word...

[truborshooter]

The ring of coloring around the bullet is possible from the seating stem making contact with the bullet ogive

So you are now dependent on the consistancy of the ogive angle meeting you seating stem in a 10 cent bullet to yield you a consistant oal

Some seating stems are larger in diameter than the bullet ogive so they make contact at the bullet nose.

Next time you have the stem out try matching it to various bullets you have and see where they make contact.

Match rifle shooter will mold epoxy to their seating stems to match the specific bullet they use.

I always use sorted brass for 9mm, by mfg, # of firings and barrels/guns fired in.

A little anal perhaps but it tries to eliminate at least some variables in handload performance.

Accuracy is based on consistancy so.....

[v1911]

Here's an idea. Have someone from your club that's an experienced reloader (maybe that GM that you've refered to) to stop by your place, buy them lunch and watch your reloading process.

They may be able to find fault in your equipment or process that alone, you may not have found.

Best of luck.

[grouptherapy]

Ya need to follow set up instructions per lee. It'll tell you to back off the seating die so you have no crimp. When the seated bullet oal is set go to the fact crimp die. Back off the stem till its almost out of the die. Raise the loaded round fully. When it touches the bullet you should run it in 1/4 to 3/8 turn but not over half in 9mm. Just enough to drop in the chamber with barrel in hand and spin is good. This figuring you have the head space right on oal. If y are hanging in the FCD die knock the size ring out and welcome to a better world. Didn't believe it till I tried it.

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