No Shoots 2 yards in front of shoot targets

[Skywalker]

If a shooter hits a steel plate with or without a no shoot target in front of it and they are couple yards away both the shooter and RO are gonna catch shrapnel.

Kimel,

you won't find it into the rules, but safe current practice here in Italy is to treat metal hardcovers the same way as metal targets when it comes to distances from the shooter.

This means that the stage designer/MD/RM won't even think or allow the placement of a steel hardcover in such a place where a competitor would/could be shooting it from a distance smaller than the minimum allowed one for shooting steel targets.

I guess we might have been too picky, but come think of it: if the (IPSC) handgun rules do not allow shooting a steel target from less than 7 m for safety concerns, why would/should you be allowed to shoot a a steel hardcover from lesser?

Perhaps, this is something that should be addressed by the rules: I mean (IPSC) rule 10.4.7 should include metal hardcovers too, not metal targets only.

[Nik Habicht]

Wouldn't a vision barrier replacing the No Shoots cause the same problem.

An overly agressive shooter

puts a round through the vision barrier prop

and into a target.

Even without looking at the rule book

I know that he wouldn't get the hit

But I have been at enough matches to know that the RO will have a tough time catching it.

Tom,

Potentially yes ---- except for the fact that a vision barrier covers more of the target. Shooters are less likely to shoot at targets they can't see ---- though if they miss wide enough to put a full diameter hit on the wall, you'll have the same problem. Of course, if you put steel behind the wall at the height of the target, that problem goes away, and so does the scoring/penalty target replacement problem......

[kimel]

I agree Sky. This is a clarification that needs to be changed.

It has become not uncommon to see a steel hardcover surrounding all of a target but the A zone (USPSA 3-Gun Nats had these for instance) but since the target was paper the rules surrounding steel targets did not apply.

The careful MD will make sure that the shooter cannot approach these too closely.

However in the scenario described at the start of this thread it almost seems to be a pre-requisite that the shooter get too close (unless the intent is to require them to engage the shoot targets at oblique angles).

The steel rule needs to be expanded.

[mactiger]

In the dark house at Berry I heard that they use stacks and stacks of used targets in front of the steel plates in the walls to guard against shrapnel.

Actually, each target in the SureFire Dark House in Barry is mounted on it's own steel-backed "trap". The first year we used plywood to trap the splatter. Last year, we used some heavy rubber, which worked much better and lasted longer. The problem was that the bullet would penetrate the target and it's plywood backer, then the splatter would go sideways in the box and shred the 2X4 sides. The rubber backer on top of the steel backstop in the target box fixed that problem.

For Tom's idea, I'd suggest not placing no-shoot targets in a course of fire merely to act as vision barriers (for the many reasons cited here), and to use some sort of real hardcover, if feasible, for vision barriers. There will always be some questionable calls, of course, but it's usually pretty easy to tell which round hit what first. Freestanding penalty targets generally cause more problems than they are worth, in my opinion.

Troy

[vincent]

I would also suggest a steel backed rectangular vision barrier. Since the object is to force them to move then the no-shoot target is really not needed. The steel backing in the rectangular vision barrier creates the same impenetrable barrier without the restrictions on what is an acceptable target. It is also easier to build a rectangular barrier and easier to cut the steel in this shape as well. Sounds like win-win.

[shred]

Got any Steel Challenge plates and gongs? Those could be real fun as hard-cover when scattered in front of targets... hmm.. I'm going to have to draw up a stage now

[Flexmoney]

Got any Steel Challenge plates and gongs?  Those could be real fun as hard-cover when scattered in front of targets... hmm.. I'm going to have to draw up a stage now

We've used some of that in the past.

When you get that stage drawn, send it to me if you would. I was looking to put something like that into a stage at the Ohio match.

(Heck, I thought about setting up a whole match, with each USPSA stage having a steel challenge stage setup within it (as hard cover). Then, when we were done with USPSA, going thru with a paint roller and white paint...and then shooting a Steel Challenge match.

___________

Back to the question at hand...

I'd tweak the stage. A few options.

- Spread some hard cover steel down closer to the targets (as shred suggested).

- Put up a barricade where the NS's are now. Staple you NS to the barricade.

- Use a couple of vision barriers (barricades, barrels) closer to the shooter. I'd still stick the NS's on them.

- If you were hell bent to use the free-standing NS's, then put them as close as possible to the shooting position...right up on the fault line. (Still could be a problem)

- Nik's V-shaped wall idea would likely work (I haven't pictured it in my mind, but I trust Nik. )

- A single wall segment, in the mddile of the "shooting alley" (near where the NS is in the current diagram), run it parallel to the walls that are seperating the shooting arrays. That would likely block the vision so that shooters would have to do some moving and back and forth transitioning. Put up NS's to discourage hits on teh walls.

[shred]

One other problem with free-standing NS is 'mystery hits' wherein the NS are far enough from the scoring targets that the RO doesn't get a good lock at them in their haste to get the scoring targets scored. Then sometime later somebody sees the NS hit and everybody starts with the Austin Powers act "that's not mine.. "