No Shoots 2 yards in front of shoot targets

[tomneal]

I have a stage for the Space City Challenge (a level III match) that has no shoots about 2 yards in front of shoot targets.

The idea is to get the shooter to move

BUT

I just realized that targets are impenatrable 9.1.5

Does that mean if someone tags a no-shoot and a shoot target they must reshoot the stage because of range equipment malfunciton?

I just went to the rule book.

It looks like the reshoot only occurs when a round goes through a no shoot and knocks down a steel.

If a round goes through a no shoot and then into a regular paper target, the shooter just looses the hit. That seems like it would be tough to RO.

How have others done this at a big match.

Did they make the no shoot out of steel?

[AikiDale]

I would suggest using a vision barrier other than a no shoot to get the shooter to move and design your stage to avoid shoot throughs.

[shred]

Flex already said target-shaped no-shoots are a no-no. Other sizes (up to 30x30 cm squares) are OK.

But, clamshell / bear-trap targets often have this problem. Typically it's handled by looking for the grease-ring around the holes, but that's not officially allowed for determining shoot-thrus

[.40AET]

Did they make the no shoot out of steel?

Probably... MGM Targets

[JFD]

Vision barriers constructed from black plastic and the same 1X2s we use for target slats are easy to make and very inexpensive.

[tomneal]

I am thinking of a static steel target with a no shoot attached to the front.

Hit will be as easy to see as a regular no-shoot

And there will be a DING when it's hit.

I will have the shooters far enough back to be safe.

What do you think of that solution?

[Jim Norman]

There was a lot of discussion about "freestanding" N/S targets earlier.

I like them because they A) force the move, penalize miies, C) and allow for design options that plain old vison barriers do not.

This being said, there can be problems with scoring. It is imperative that the RO and his assistant watch where the shooter is shooting.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement

of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

[Flexmoney]

Putting a NS 2y in front of a shoot target is inviting trouble.

[tomneal]

Will having a T1 Steel target behind each of the no shoot fix all the problems?

[rhino]

Why not make the no-shoot from steel? That would solve the problem.

[shred]

Consider putting steel hardcover up instead (and far enough away to save on splatter and funky edge-hits). HC will encourage hosing.. which will cause more crowd-pleasing 'ding's, which will cause more panicked hosing...

NS just don't have the same effect.. everybody tries to stay well away from those.

Rhino- Steel NS more than 30cm x 30cm are a no-no.. see Flex's spinning-hypno-thread

[rhino]

Bah! More rules! RULES!

[kevin c]

Are NS poppers still ok?

[Nik Habicht]

Kevin,

Yes, because they're a legal steel target. The rulebook appendices layout the various legal steel targets --- and a steel Metric or Classic isn't on the list.....

[Skywalker]

Don't understand all this fuss and cuss about steel.

Legal targets are those listed in the rulebook (IPSC or USPSA doesn't matter).

BUT, it has been pointed out in another thread, and it has been recommended as good practice over the years: if you want to have really impenetrable objects (being them props, hard covers, or whatever else) back them up with steel.

There is no rule prohibiting to back up a no-shoot with steel.

Only a bit more work if the NS is hit.

[tomneal]

I am with skywalker on this.

I don't see any rule against backing a no shoot with steel.

It just makes it a better course of fire.

[Flexmoney]

Tom,

I don't think there is any rule against that.

But, realize that, any hit will probably shred the NS...likely requiring replacement. The target is no big deal (half a dollar each)...but it takes time to replace it (and nobody wants to slow down a Major match).

Then there is this (fwiw):

2.1.8.2 When paper and metal targets are used in close proximity in

a course of fire, care must be taken to minimize the risk of splatter from metal targets.

Gotta remember, you still have to score that NS. It might also be hard to tell if the shooter earned one or two NS penalties. (though, what you are talking about doing is using metal hard-cover, not a metal target)

Got a diagram of the stage? Maybe the members here could take a look and offer some input.

[tomneal]

http://www.texassouthsection.com/SCC_2005/...20position2.pdf

We had a berm that was nearly 50 yards wide. Last year we built two walls filled with pea gravel to dived the berm into 3 bays. They are each about 15 yards deep. This stage is designed to be put in the middle berm. (The one with walls on both sides.)

My goal with this stage was to make the shooter solve a shooting problem.

and

to use the entire bay.

GM's may be able to walk and shoot.

Mortals may have to stop multiple times.

[Nik Habicht]

Tom,

Where you have the PTs in front, I'd probably put up a section of fence. Eight foot sections of six foot tall fence are affordable, you can cut them in half, or thirds to make smaller vision barriers.

They're versatile, because, among other things, you can screwgun two of them together at ninety degree angle, and then set them with the joint pointing downrange ---- that allows you to make one target visible on the approach, the other one not until you've gone past the vision barriers.

[tomneal]

What is a "PTs"?

[Merlin Orr]

PXXXX Targets?

Edited to prevent ass from showing.....

[diehli]

PT= Penalty Target.

[tomneal]

Wouldn't a vision barrier replacing the No Shoots cause the same problem.

An overly agressive shooter

puts a round through the vision barrier prop

and into a target.

Even without looking at the rule book

I know that he wouldn't get the hit

But I have been at enough matches to know that the RO will have a tough time catching it.

[kimel]

If you use steel barriers be prepared to deal with splatter when/if they are shot. If a shooter hits a steel plate with or without a no shoot target in front of it and they are couple yards away both the shooter and RO are gonna catch shrapnel. And you just know that some shooter is gonna have a brain fade and punch one of those no-shoots. It is just bound to happen.

Bad idea.

In the dark house at Berry I heard that they use stacks and stacks of used targets in front of the steel plates in the walls to guard against shrapnel.

Plywood covers would probably do a similar function if spaced off the steel a bit.