New IDPA Rules Corrections Suggestions

[rmills]

This is where suggestions to correct issues brought up in the "New IDPA Rules Issues" topic should be posted.

[slowsure]

Speedloaders for the revo guys should be moved back to where they were. Two in front and one in back.

[slowsure]

Holster rules should be more of a "outside looking in" viewpoint not a "inside looking out".

Holster rules should be if your concelment acutally concells, you are legal. If you can tell your carrying your not legal.

I as an SO am not going to bend down and look for light on every shooter I run thru a stage. If I see his/her gear thru there concelment. Lets talk. The body centerline for holsters is good, not really for mag pouches/speedloaders, again if I can see your gear while your pasting targets, walking around the range in normal activities your not legal. If you come up to the line and I can see your mags/speedloaders from the opening in the front of your vest your not legal. Is this too simple too work?

50% of the mag in a carrier??? How about if you can see the mag thru concelment you can't use it? Drop one on the ground in a stage without actually relading it and match DQ?

That is my 02

[TractorTed]

My two cents...

I think that the best thing I've yet seen in the new rules is the division of the revolver group into two classes. Speedloaders are simply not competitive with moonclips, but I think that is where the split should have stopped. ESR now will allow Seven and eight shot revolvers, allowing some, at least, to gain an advantage by having makeup shots available. No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Other than the ESR class, and some rewording for clarification purposes, I don't see much I like in the new book.

Pg. 63 "There are two ways a shooter can be reclassified at a sanctioned match:"...."2. If the winner of a division and classification has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification. If the 2nd place competitor of a division and classification has a better score than 20 - 29 shooters in his classification AND the classification above within the same division, the 2nd place competitor will be promoted, etc."

Huh? I totally do not understand the above paragraph. Could someone translate this for me? It seems to say the same thing as the paragraph that is above it in the book, only in a much more confusing way.

The 45GAP has been placed in ESP division, instead of CDP, even though it was designed as an equivalent of the 45ACP. I guess Glocks already make the winners circle too often, heaven forbid a 1911 should be beat by one. Let's hope Glock doesn't start making revolvers, if they do, we may see even dumber restrictions in SSR & ESR.

Weight restrictions are just plain stupid. It's already illegal to add weight to a gun, what makes restrictions necessary? It appears that they put the limits at points where they are going to outlaw several previously legal service guns. I know of at least a couple of people who just got pushed out for being "overweight". If the pistol fits in the damn box, or revolver has a 4" barrel, they should be allowed to play. This in my opinion is the only necessary measurement. Are we going to be required to weigh guns now? Can someone shave an ounce from the inside of their gun to "make weight"? Or do we just kick'em out for having a S&W 610, at 45oz., instead of a 625 at 42? "Sorry buddy, go spend another $700 on a new gun, then come back and play." No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Goodbye any holster made of plastic, kydex, etc. The new rule states:

"If you look through the belt slot area of the holster with it on

the belt/body, you should not be able to see any daylight. If

you can see through this belt tunnel area, the holster is not

approved." Plastic will not form to the body like leather. I just tried the Fobus holster I have for my Glocks, and my kydex GP-100 holster, neither will pass this test, I even put the Fobus on with the belt between the outside of the belt loop attachment and the inside of the gun pocket. All of my holsters are listed on the (previously) approved list. Between the three holsters I use, I'm out over $100! No equipment race here, is there Bill?

Many of my friends will have to replace previously legal mag pouches and speed loader/ moonclip holders because they no longer cover enough of the device they are meant to retain, even though they retain them the same way they did yesterday. No equipment race here, is there Bill?

They say that they want to avoid an equipment race, yet they change the rules to outlaw tens or hundreds of products that were perfectly legal previously. This makes no sense. I'm out over $100 because I now have to replace my plastic holsters with leather or (yuck) nylon. I'm sure it will be closer to $300 when I'm done because leather is expensive. Thanks again Bill, you can be sure none of the replacements (or anything) I (ever) buy will say "Wilson Combat" on them.

I only spent a little while going through the book, I'm sure there is a lot more, both good and bad, but what I've pointed out here may be enough for me to look seriously at forgoing IDPA matches and instead shooting USPSA matches, for the exact reason I did the opposite three years ago. I can't afford to shoot in a sport dominated by equipment races, whether the race is caused by needing competitive equipment, or by needing to replace my competition equipment every two years to continue to be allowed to compete. The equipment I have now is allowed in USPSA.

[R Dub]

This statement is in BOTH the LGB and the new one. So why is it not being applied now.

STABILITY OF RULES

Equipment rule changes will only be reviewed every two (2) years. Any equipment rule changes will go into effect twelve (12) months after approval.

Also:

*Weight limits. Increase weight limits for Revolves and SSP. The current limits exclude several very popular handguns.. several revolvers and the Para LDA 5" series and one Sig that I know of.

*REMOVE the 165 PF for the 9mm. I checked six major ammo manufacturers and NONE make a 9mm defense round that will make 165 PF.

[MikeyG23]

Do away with all the new BS holster rules. If it's concealable, it's good to go.

The 50% mag pouch rule is plain stupid. If a mag pouch/speedloader pouch/moonclip holder will hold a fullly loaded magazine/speedloader/moonclip when its turned upside down it should be good to go.

I've got a new STI due in a couple of weeks and I'm really p*ssed off because I don't have a clue what holster to order that is legal.

[matto]

For holsters - keep the 3/4" from the body rule. It is an objective rule we can live with. Drop the junk about daylight and channels. If you have to look, the holster is visible and the hole concealement thing is out the window. The general rule should be - if your gear is visible you can't shoot.

For mag carriers - I like the idea of penalties for falling mags. A DQ might be overly severe. Drop the junk about 50%. It either holds the mags or it doesn't.

A retention test might be in order the way that USPSA used to do it. However it may require physical moves that many shooters could not accomplish

[rmills]

The 50% mag pouch rule is plain stupid. If a mag pouch/speedloader pouch/moonclip holder will hold a fullly loaded magazine/speedloader/moonclip when its turned upside down it should be good to go.

I believe the magazine carrier rule was put in place due to individuals inserting their mags barely into the holders to get a faster reload. I've called shooters for this before while So'ing. If one was going to carry mags all day concealed, it would be best if they were fully inserted into the carrier as not to drop or lose them.

Practical is the key word in this situation.

[drkyte]

Since the range of calibers is the same, the power factor for ESR should be the same as SSP and ESP. Will IDPA buy me a prosthetic hand after I load my Ruger 9mm with major loads?

No maunfacturer makes an IDPA legal 8 shot clip fed revolver. Does this not start a customized gun race?

If two divisions are needed, it should just be clip fed and speedloader fed. Unless you want to add a third for single action cowboy guns. And how about cap and ball revolvers?

[drkyte]

Oh yeah, revolver clip/speedloader holder placement should remain the same as the old rules. I tried putting two behind the holster and the second ended up about the middle of my back. I'm too old for that kind of contortion. It certainly isn't something I would wear "all day."

[redmist10]

Eliminate 7/8 shot revolvers = equipment races end with 6 shots per gun

Revert to the two speedloaders or moonclips in front, one in back

Keep moon clip guns in one class, speedloaders in another (SSR = speedloader) OR for goodness sake allow conversions and keep them all in one class.

Revert back to the 125 pf for all revo class(es) - or keep it and have all moonclip guns in one class with the 165pf, I don't really care, the pf is not the issue.

Acceptable reloading gear should be anything that keeps the moonclip or speedloader in place while you move about, including a coat pocket (like real life). It you want to use something that might allow your moon clips to fall on the ground...fine, we have a place for that on the score sheet. Pick it up as it happens or get the 20 second penalty. Don't fiddle with every stinking scenario and piece of equipment. If you drop something make the penalty hurt - pretty simple.

All holsters should be legal if they retain the pistol by some method, friction, strap, tension screws - whatever. So long as you can bend over to pick up your brass and the gun doesn't fall out it should be legal. Keep the low cuts on the holster to the place specified in the rule book to limit "quick draw" type holsters if you must.

If your holster can't be seen when wearing a vest....guess what - it's concealed as it would be in real life.

Train SO's to stick to the rules and enforce them. If someone at the Nationals has a problem with keeping holsters, mag pouches, moonclips, or speedloaders in the right place send them home. 224 other people will assist you while you walk them to the car.

Concealment garments should be legal if they conceal the gun...that's the point. It shouldn't matter if they are orange, weighted, stiff, loose, flowered, etc. If you have two potato sacks stitched inside for dropping mags you are not following the spirit of the game....have a nice drive home.

Leave the revolver classification times as they were or reverse them. Either way the numbers are completely arbitrary. Also, all four-gun Masters need their classifications evaluated. Gotta catch those squeakers .

[BigDave]

If I were writing the holster rules they'd read something like:

The following holsters are specfically excluded from IDPA compettion: Safarliand 002, 003, 007, 009, 010, 011, 012, Limcat, CR Speed, CR Secure [insert name of any other race holster]. In addition, trigger guard locking devices and similar are not allowed. SOB, shoulder and ankle [other safety issue holsters] hosters are not allowed. Holsters must cover the trigger guard in its entirety and a portion of the slide between the barrel hood and muzzle. Holsters for revolvers must cover a portion of the cylinder and some portion from barrel between the cylinder and muzzle. Holsters must, when removed from the body and belt, hold the firearm while inverted and remain in such a state during IDPA competition.

When worn under the concealment garment to be used in the IDPA competition in question, the holster and firearm must remain concealed from view (both direct view and a profile visible through the concealment garment) when the competitors arms are extended when they are parallel to the ground, and while arms are hanging relaxed, naturally at the sides. If a question arrises in this matter, a committee formed of the the Match Director and two IDPA certifed Safety Officer's will observe and make the decision. Only unanimous (sp?) 3-0 vote against will render the equipment combination in question ineligible for the match in question. The competitor may still compete with any other equipment combination that is not otherwise excluded.

Something to that effect. Allow everything except what you exclude. Just my $0.02.

[GeorgeInNePa]

  Holsters must, when removed from the body and belt, hold the firearm while inverted and remain in such a state during IDPA competition. 

I only shoot about 2 IDPA matches per year, only when there are no USPSA matches to shoot. So right off, I really don't care about the rules changes.

When I do shoot IDPA,I use a Yaqui belt slide for my G17. I am almost certain that if I turned the holster upside down the gun would fall out. Are you telling me they are no good for IDPA?

If so, I'm calling Jeff Cooper up and he's going to come to your house and smite you!

[GRD]

I believe the magazine carrier rule was put in place due to individuals inserting their mags barely into the holders to get a faster reload. I've called shooters for this before while So'ing. If one was going to carry mags all day concealed, it would be best if they were fully inserted into the carrier as not to drop or lose them.

Lets not bend over backwards trying to absolve Bill of what he's done. Banning what must be fully 90% of the mag pouches in use today because some people weren't inserting their mags all the way?

Please.

- Gabe

[roundgunner]

Any of you guys out there who are going to shoot at the S&W Winter Championships in a couple weeks don’t kid your self about the rules not taking effect for a year I e-mailed Harry Simonson to get the straight skinny and this is it.

Harry

I have not got any response from Berryville yet so I need to know are the S&W Winter Championships going to be done under the new rules or the old rules?

If we shoot with new rules I need to do some load development and I don’t have a 4 inch 625 to chrono.

Harry do you have a 165pf load for titegroup with a 200gr rn? My 2 inch is a bit fussy but it will qualify in the rule book and I have a versamax 2 iwb for it. Can I carry moon clips in my pocket like I would at the mall?

Is there a factory load out there that will make power and not beat my 625-10 to death?

Please respond with even a best guess.

If we show up with one of those awful cheating tricked out six shooten 610s in a Bladetech will we be able to shoot and just not have it count?

Harry’s response

Hi Warren,

Sorry, I do not have any guidance for you other than to say that the new rules are in effect immediately and we intend to conduct the match according to the rules. The SOs and MD will meet amongst ourselves to work out the details over the next few weeks.

Moon clips in the pocket are fine.

Regards,

Harry

So gentlemen its time to break out the wallet, buy some new stuff and thank God we live in America where we can go out and buy cool gun stuff.

I just don’t think I will buy anything that has WC stamped on it. I’m personally lucky I can shoot the match without spending a lot of money but it pisses me off that my 610 is a outlaw.

If anybody can get me on the right track for a 200gr 165pf with titegroup out of a 4 inch bbl that would be great. I don’t have a 4 inch 45 and if I try to get pf with a 2 inch bbl I will be doing +p+.45 pressure.

I will post this in a couple threads but any help would be great.

Shoot’em good

Warren

[snokid]

I wonder how many people will be asking for a refund for the match?

Bob

[redmist10]

I wonder how many people will be asking for a refund for the match?

Bob

I already mailed out two applications for two different IDPA state matches already....Now I'm contemplating sending that money to the USPSA Area 5, Area 8, Ohio Section, etc. if I can get my money back.