What I learned at the range last Friday.

[Zak Smith]

Shooting rifle drills at about 10 and 20 yards. 3 IPSC targets spaced about 2 yards apart. Rifles were:

. 16" RRA, irons, MSTN QC

. 16" MRP, irons and later M2, Phantom f/h

. 17" MSTN, EOThing, MSTN QC, KAC VFG mounted

. JP CTR02, TA11, JP BC comp

Drill #1: from low ready, on buzzer put one shot into each IPSC head. 1H-1H-1H.

Drill #2: from low ready, on buzzer put two shots into each IPSC body. 2B-2B-2B.

Drill #3: from low ready, on buzzer put three shots into one IPSC body. 3B.

Everything was timed. I did a lot of A/B comparisons to see what was faster and slower.

Observations:

1. The presence of a comp did not affect target transition times (Drill #1) In fact, I was getting faster runs with my 16" MRP (with Phantom FH) vs. the 16" RRA, when both had irons.
   
2. The presence of a comp speeded up Drills #2 and #3, when targets are re-engaged.
   
3. Sight picture / muzzle movement with the f/h was readily apparent in Drills #2 and #3 vs. a comp.
   
4. It's faster to acquire a target (actually to analyze the sight picture for acceptability at speed) and track the sight picture with 1X optics vs. irons
   
5. The TA11 was totally dominated, even with its front lens occluded, by everything else. It's just too slow at these ranges.
   
6. With the 17" rifle, using the VFG was slower on Drill #1 than controlling the fore-end with my hand at its far front end, pointing with my LH index finger. I attribute this to "natural" pointing ability.
   
7. The VFG was faster for target re-engagements, most evident in Drill #3.
   
8. 10 yards or 20 yards didn't make much of a difference, if any
   
9. The fastest was the 17", using the end of the tube for #1 or #2, and the VFG for #3
   
10. Putting the M93 on P2 or P3 and using an aggressive stance was faster than not
    
11. 1 stage or 2 stage trigger made no difference, except that I was short-stroking the trigger on the 16" RRA for some reason.. it's just another JP SS trigger like most of the rest of them.
    
12. for gripping the end of the float tube, the thinner PRI tube is easier than the MRP with rail panels
    
13. It was noticably faster for me to engage the array from right to left. (I shoot right-handed)
    

[rhino]

Thanks for sharing your results and analysis with us, Zak.

I don't think there were any surprises, but it's good to know for yourself vs. "believing."

I go faster right to left with both long guns and handguns as well. I'm not sure why with the pistola, but I think with the long gun it's because you have a "free" eye on the left side of your head to use without any obstructions. When going from left to right, your left eye's vision has to deal with the gun and mount, etc. in the way.

Of course, I could be wrong!

I had no doubts about the ACOG being slower at close ranges. Do you think it's possible that the people who can go really fast with them (as compared to their own performance with a dot or irons) are actually point shooting, but don't realize it?

I'd be interested to know how the vertical fore grip would affect the same drills with some movement.

I also think it would be good to put the foregrip on the gun with the flash hider instead of the comp, as I think it would make more of a difference in keeping the sights still. With a comp I think the VFG is a lot less useful, especially if you prefer to point with your support hand finger along the handguard when you shoot anyway.

With my baby AR, I hold on the magwell to keep it as still as I can, but I think with a VFG I'd have the same effect, but I'd be able to do transitions a bit faster.

[BigDave]

I go faster right to left with both long guns and handguns as well. I'm not sure why with the pistola, but I think with the long gun it's because you have a "free" eye on the left side of your head to use without any obstructions. When going from left to right, your left eye's vision has to deal with the gun and mount, etc. in the way.

All the more weird for you, my friend, considering you shoot right handed but aim with your left eye.

[kurtm]

#5: News to me! the fastest carbine el prez I ever did was with a TA-11. I am begining to think that maybe this is because I don't have an eye dominance problem like some. I think Matt would agree with me, as he really is fast w/ the good old TA-11 also. Rhino, I can assure you it isn't point shooting, at least for me. I have never used the TA-11 with the front lens covered, it is perfect the way it is! and since I bought it to see through, you wont find any tape on the front of mine.

#13. Right on!! right to left is WAY easier, because of the things Rhio pointed out.

[rhino]

All the more weird for you, my friend, considering you shoot right handed but aim with your left eye.

Just with la pistola, David Grande! I use my right eye for long guns ...

But you're right ... it kind of makes my pistol right-to-left preference a bit odd.

#5: News to me! the fastest carbine el prez I ever did was with a TA-11. I am begining to think that maybe this is because I don't have an eye dominance problem like some. I think Matt would agree with me, as he really is fast w/ the good old TA-11 also. Rhino, I can assure you it isn't point shooting, at least for me. I have never used the TA-11 with the front lens covered, it is perfect the way it is! and since I bought it to see through, you wont find any tape on the front of mine.

Okay, but don't forget, Kurt ... you're a mutant!

[Zak Smith]

I guess I figured the enlightened BE crowd wouldn't require this disclaimer: I don't mean to present this as true for everyone, just some things I learned for myself at the range with a timer.

[chp5]

I guess I figured the enlightened BE crowd wouldn't require this disclaimer: I don't mean to present this as true for everyone, just some things I learned for myself at the range with a timer.

Good post. Thanks Zak.

[kurtm]

Zak no disclaimer needed. It was a good report. What works for one sometimes doesn't work for others, but the sharing of knowledge is what this is all about!! I just happen to be able to use the TA-11. I can get two seprate and fully functional sight pictures when I hold up two pistols, and shoot them at the same time. I do this occasionally to impress range denzien. When I say I don't have a dominant eye problem, I really don't. This only proves Rhino's point! I also have such a small head I can look through a key hole with both eyes. Don't take all this so seriously amigo. See you in Mesa! KURT

[AH6IP]

I can get two seprate and fully functional sight pictures when I hold up two pistols, and shoot them at the same time

Kurt-

I think they call that "Marty Feldman" disorder??

[Larry White]

3 postings,3 threads in a row, Kurt must still be stuck outback with the sheep.----Larry

[kurtm]

Larry:

I think that would fall into the catagory of what I learned out on the range . KURT BTW Im home now so no sheep for a while!

[gl]

Out back???? Sheep???? Is there a story here???

I lived in Oklahoma and I know what that means there.....................

Wait a minute..................................... Kurt you are in Oklahoma now right???

LOL!!!

Guy