Beginner looking to build an USPSA Tanfoglio

[tycoonbob]

Hi everyone. New here, so hello. I'm a fairly new pistol shooter (less than 2 years), and have never competed. I've fallen in love with CZ style firearms (as opposed to 1911's which I also like, but do not like many of the typical 'merican firearms like Glocks, XD's, Sig's, etc). I have a Witness Elite Match in 9mm with Henning's fiber front sight, and raised rear site, and Hogue grips...and hopefully Henning's flat trigger in the near future. I also recently got a Witness Pavona for my lady in 9mm, which she loves and is quite the shot with.

Anyway, I've never been to a shooting competition before, but have watched plenty of videos and did some research. I plan to start attending some matches as a spectator, but I also want to start competing and have chosen USPSA. Ultimately, I think I want to build a open class race gun, but want to start in USPSA Limited. I want to build a Tanfoglio pistol for Limited, which I can later take to Open...if that can be done? I'm having trouble deciding where to start, and with what caliber. I know USPSA Open is dominated by .38 Super, but I don't reload (not yet anyway). I think I want to brave minor 9mm, and later switch to major PF 9mm. Could I build a Tanfoglio that can handle major 9mm?

I've got my eye set on a Witness Hunter (10mm, maybe .45), and would buy a match 9mm barrel for it. I like that the frame is already drilled for scope mount, and I like the black color. However, could I use the Hunter frame in USPSA Limited?

I really like the Hunter in 10mm, as I may try my hand at hunting with it a little, so I would like that I could swap out barrel and then use it to hunt. However, I primarily shoot 9mm and .45, so those are the two caliber's I'm familiar with.

So yeah, sorry for the rambling...would a Hunter 10mm be a good start for a USPSA Limited gun, that I could later take to Open? I'm thinking the extended magwell, henning flat trigger, replace the hammer with a heart-shaped, replace springs, scope mount with scope, and maybe a few other things is where I would likely end up. Oh yeah, I'm a lefty so I would have to get the Ambi controls for the Hunter.

Thanks!

[CleverUsername]

Welcome fellow lefty, My advice would be to get an ambisafety for the match and while installing it, polish all the contact points if you havent already. Get some Henning 140mm basepads and grams followers with 11coil spring installed so you can run 23+1 and go out and have a blast.

If you get the Hunter, you can always swap your 9mm upper from your match on it and maybe add a factory magwell with no problem.

Edited June 9, 2014 by CleverUsername

[tycoonbob]

Guess I didn't think to use my Elite Match in Limited. I do need to get the ambisafety for my Match, but have adjusted to using my index finger that I've really forgotten about it.

Is it more advisable to build separate Limited and Open guns?

[Nealio]

I would do what CleverUsername said.

First get out and shoot the gun you have. Then if you want to build an open gun, or upgrade to a better Limited gun you will have a better idea of what you like/dislike. Your equipment isn't going to make much difference at first, so just go out and have fun. Even shooting minor is fine.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Nealio

[Nealio]

Is it more advisable to build separate Limited and Open guns?

There are pros and cons to both approaches.

Single frame, multiple slides:

Pros:

Only 1 trigger job is required.

You literally shoot the same frame, so no getting used to differences between guns

Cons:

You can't easily go out and shoot both guns.

Re-mounting the optic would probably require that you re-zero the gun

Getting both slides fit perfect could require some work (or could not)

[kneelingatlas]

Unless you're itching for a new gun, I would get started with the Match, then decide what you want to shoot.

I have found switching back and forth is too much trouble and besides, once you shoot Open you'll never want to shoot Limited again .

The only real difference between an Limited frame and an Open frame is the dust cover, the long dust cover on a Limited helps soak up the recoil but it just slows an Open gun down.


The Hunter frame is the same as the Limited so you can do just about anything with it:

[tycoonbob]

I really don't know why I didn't think about using my Match as a Limited gun. I think that's the approach I will take then, as it will save me quite a bit of money to just get out and shoot USPSA and try it out. Once I replace the trigger it will do me nicely, and I can later buy a Hunter 10mm and decide from there what I really want to do.

Does Hennings magwell's fit on the Elite Match? I know my Match is a large frame, but it seems all he has available are small frame magwells.

[kneelingatlas]

Below I talk about a large frame Henning mag well on a Match, small frame would take more fitting:

I tried to match up a magwell off a Limited, but it seemed to be further off than a millimeter. Once I aligned the bolt hole with the slot you mention under the grips, it was more like 4 or 5 centimeters gap. The magwell sat way too far forward.

I could have jerry rigged it on there by filing down the back of my grip. The hump back there kept it from even going on, but that still would have left it misaligned.

I'm guessing there simply aren't any products out there? A shame no one is making something that bolts on like the other Tanfoglios.

I realize this info could be useful in the Chop Shop, so I re posted it here:

Match frame on the left, Hunter frame on the right:

Mag well bolted to the Match frame:

You can see it's shifter back slightly:

Compared to the Hunter:

but it still works as intended:

I though about filling in the bottom of the hole in the back of the Match frame with weld and re drilling it a hair further forward so it would line up perfectly, but that's low on my priority list.

[kneelingatlas]

Rich at Canyon Creek does a weld on version for the Match: http://www.shop.canyoncreekcustom.com/product.sc?productId=16&categoryId=3

[Nealio]

I really don't know why I didn't think about using my Match as a Limited gun. I think that's the approach I will take then, as it will save me quite a bit of money to just get out and shoot USPSA and try it out. Once I replace the trigger it will do me nicely, and I can later buy a Hunter 10mm and decide from there what I really want to do.

Have you shot a flat trigger and decided that you like it, or are you just thinking of buying it because its aftermarket?

[tycoonbob]

I really don't know why I didn't think about using my Match as a Limited gun. I think that's the approach I will take then, as it will save me quite a bit of money to just get out and shoot USPSA and try it out. Once I replace the trigger it will do me nicely, and I can later buy a Hunter 10mm and decide from there what I really want to do.

Have you shot a flat trigger and decided that you like it, or are you just thinking of buying it because its aftermarket?

I have not shot it before, and pretty much want it because it's aftermarket. I haven't attempted adjusting the travel on the stock trigger, but that could likely satisfy my needs. I basically want very little pre-travel, and a short reset.

[Nealio]

I have not shot it before, and pretty much want it because it's aftermarket. I haven't attempted adjusting the travel on the stock trigger, but that could likely satisfy my needs. I basically want very little pre-travel, and a short reset.

So the reset has nothing to do with the trigger. That is a product of how the sear and trigger bar interact. The pre-travel and overtravel are controlled with the screws on the trigger though. But you can get All the characteristics you want from the stock trigger (with some work).

[idcastandblast]

But you can get All the characteristics you want from the stock trigger (with some work)

Believe Nealio. He worked over my Match, and I have had many people say how awesome my trigger is.

[tycoonbob]

I have not shot it before, and pretty much want it because it's aftermarket. I haven't attempted adjusting the travel on the stock trigger, but that could likely satisfy my needs. I basically want very little pre-travel, and a short reset.

So the reset has nothing to do with the trigger. That is a product of how the sear and trigger bar interact. The pre-travel and overtravel are controlled with the screws on the trigger though. But you can get All the characteristics you want from the stock trigger (with some work).

How can I achieve this with the stock trigger? Honestly, I've not yet detail stripped my Match so I don't know the insides that well, but I've seen a few videos of the trigger replacement process.

[BrazeauRacing]

I'm currently using an Elite Match 9mm in USPSA Limited, and I'm loving it (I'm fairly new to action pistol competition). The gun was an impulse purchase for me originally, but I'm glad I have it now. I've stippled the factory plastic grips with a soldering iron, put grip tape on the front strap, installed a factory ambi safety and Henning's sight set for the Match. I've also installed Stoeger aluminum base pads on all the mags. The weight of the frame rail makes it a really flat shooter, and I've only got $950 in the gun with all the mods and mags. A great beginner gun for sure. The ONLY thing I wish this gun had is a mag well. I'm reluctant to get the Canyon Creek weld-on, because I don't want to have the frame re-finished, and I've read that using epoxy is not a good long-term solution.

Edited June 10, 2014 by BrazeauRacing

[Nealio]

I have not shot it before, and pretty much want it because it's aftermarket. I haven't attempted adjusting the travel on the stock trigger, but that could likely satisfy my needs. I basically want very little pre-travel, and a short reset.

How can I achieve this with the stock trigger? Honestly, I've not yet detail stripped my Match so I don't know the insides that well, but I've seen a few videos of the trigger replacement process.

I'll give you the summary for now. I have an aftermarket sear and hammer, but you can get pretty close to that with stock parts. Here is the list of things to do:

Take the trigger out, remove the pre-travel screw. It gets cut off at an angle at the factory (no idea why). Chuck it up in a drill and shape it into a bullet point. It should look like a 115gr 9mm round when you are done. That will make it so you can adjust the pre-travel properly.

For the sear you need to shorten and shape the leg that contacts the trigger bar. There are a lot of posts on how to do that.

Then to improve the pull you need to polish the plunger and trigger bar. You can also put a lighter trigger return spring in as well.

[Blake Keiser]

Be sure you like the reset on a trigger- spring- lightened trigger. If you're a "trigger slapper" like me, it helps to get a boost off the lever for subsequent shots! Just saying.

[tycoonbob]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I've decided to not buy the Henning flat trigger (at least not yet), nor do any trigger work other than adjusting the pre/post travel screws and see if that's something I like.

Also, I'm selling one of my range toys and will free up about $400 to put into my Witness Elite Match 9mm, in order to make it a USPSA Limited gun. Currently, I have the Hogue grip and 2 17-rd mags. I'm trying to decide what I want to buy/do to my Match, and need help spending that $400.

How many mags are you recommended to have? I have 2, was thinking I need to buy 2-3 more. Mags are like $20-22 each, plus I want to get the extended pads. I don't want to have to buy a new spring/follower, so should I get the Henning H-500 or the USPSA H-141? My understanding with the large frame H-141, I would have to do a little shaving. Would the H-500 give me any more capacity? I believe the H-141 would give me 24 rds of 9mm, yes? Is there another brand other than the Henning's I should be looking at? I'd like to get to at least 20 rds, while being USPSA legal and tool-less.

Aside from magazines/pads, I also need a USPSA holster and have been eyeing Henning's Blade-Tech "Sting-Ray" Belt Holster (since I'm left handed). Is there anything better/cheaper out there I should also look at?

That would leave me about $125-150 left. Is there anything else I should get that's bolt on or easy swap out? slide spring, etc?

Thanks!

[kneelingatlas]

My understanding with the large frame H-141, I would have to do a little shaving. Would the H-500 give me any more capacity? I believe the H-141 would give me 24 rds of 9mm, yes? Is there another brand other than the Henning's I should be looking at? I'd like to get to at least 20 rds, while being USPSA legal and tool-less.

Aside from magazines/pads, I also need a USPSA holster and have been eyeing Henning's Blade-Tech "Sting-Ray" Belt Holster (since I'm left handed). Is there anything better/cheaper out there I should also look at?

I haven't needed to do any fitting with Henning's pads, what have you read?

141s are what you want, with the Grams spring/follower you should get 23 rounds of 9mm pretty easy, but 24 will be a stretch.

I use the CR Speed WSMII for Tanfoglio, it's served me well. I tried the DAA Race master, but didn't like it.

[bikerburgess]

I checked my 141s on 10mm mags with the gage and needed to take about a 1/16th of the back of the feed lips to get them to fit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[tycoonbob]

My understanding with the large frame H-141, I would have to do a little shaving. Would the H-500 give me any more capacity? I believe the H-141 would give me 24 rds of 9mm, yes? Is there another brand other than the Henning's I should be looking at? I'd like to get to at least 20 rds, while being USPSA legal and tool-less.

Aside from magazines/pads, I also need a USPSA holster and have been eyeing Henning's Blade-Tech "Sting-Ray" Belt Holster (since I'm left handed). Is there anything better/cheaper out there I should also look at?

I haven't needed to do any fitting with Henning's pads, what have you read?

141s are what you want, with the Grams spring/follower you should get 23 rounds of 9mm pretty easy, but 24 will be a stretch.

I use the CR Speed WSMII for Tanfoglio, it's served me well. I tried the DAA Race master, but didn't like it.

http://www.henningshootsguns.com/shop/magpads.html

[...]

Now available for both large and small frame magazines. For Large Frame magazines, this pad combined with the new Follower/Spring kit you can reload to 21 rounds in 40 S&W! To make it USPSA 141.25mm legal you have to shave the back of the magazine slightly to get it into the gauge. This setup gives you reloadable 21 rounds right off the bat, no need to wait for the springs to "set". I also sell complete, ready-to-go competition magazines in the magazine section.

[...]

This is where I read you had to slightly cut the pad to get it to be USPSA legal. 23 rounds of 9mm is fantastic, but I really don't want to have to replace the spring and the following. The H-141 pad is $40, and another $20 for the following and spring. Add another $22 for the mag itself, that's $80 for a single mag. At that price, 3 is all I could do right now.

Does the H-500 extend capacity? I'd assume it does, otherwise why not just use the H250 base plates. The description of these say provide an increased capacity, and used with a Grams kit can increase the capacity even further. Any idea what the H-500 increase the capacity to with factory spring/follower? If it only adds 1 rounds without the Grams kit, and another 1-2 rounds with the Grams kit (which I assume the kit is $10-15 each), that would still be $67 per mag. At that price, I may just go with the H-141 anyway. If I can get 20 rounds in the H-500 with the factory spring/follow, I'll do that instead, otherwise I may just end up with 3 mags with the H-141 (1 in gun, 2 on belt -- I assume that's suffice for competition?).

I assume the H-141 Pad / Follower / Spring Kit Henning offers is the Grams kit??

Heck, with 3 mags with the H-141 and Grams Kit (assuming the above is true), I would have 69 rounds. One in gun to start, and two on belt, which should be enough for a Limited stage, right?

Is the DAA legal for USPSA Limited? I thought that was only legal in USPSA Open? I found a left handed DAA Race Master for ~$200, but they are only for the squared trigger guards on Witness pistols, and the Elite Match is not squared. If the CR-Speed Holster WSM-II is legal for Limited, I may look into them, if they will indeed work with the rounded trigger guard. It would finish off the money I have to spend.

Edited June 23, 2014 by tycoonbob

[kneelingatlas]

Yes, race holsters are legal in Limited per Appendix D2.20

[kneelingatlas]

As long as your mags run well and hold 20+ rounds you shouldn't need more than two, I carry three just in case.

[BrazeauRacing]

23 rounds of 9mm is fantastic, but I really don't want to have to replace the spring and the following.

I just picked up some of the H-141 bases to go with my new magwell on my 9mm Match and I'm using my factory springs and followers with them. I can load 20 rounds without any problems. 21 rounds causes the factory follower to hang on the bottom of the spacer in the mag. I'm happy with an increase of 3 rounds with the H-141 for now.

[tycoonbob]

Yes, race holsters are legal in Limited per Appendix D2.20

Awesome, didn't know this.

As long as your mags run well and hold 20+ rounds you shouldn't need more than two, I carry three just in case.

That's what I figured. The third is a just in case, so I think I'll just do 3 mags total, at least for now. Or maybe 5 mags but only 3 with extended base pads.

23 rounds of 9mm is fantastic, but I really don't want to have to replace the spring and the following.

I just picked up some of the H-141 bases to go with my new magwell on my 9mm Match and I'm using my factory springs and followers with them. I can load 20 rounds without any problems. 21 rounds causes the factory follower to hang on the bottom of the spacer in the mag. I'm happy with an increase of 3 rounds with the H-141 for now.

Thanks for the info. With this, I can at least get the H-141's and use factory springs, and get the Grams kit at a later date. 20 rounds is plenty, I would think, and the Grams Kit would add 3 more at a later date.

Heck, the more I think about it, I think I will just get 3 of the H-141 with the Grams Kit, since I am re-purposing money from a firearm sale. I could buy 2 more mags and leave stock until I want to get a few more H-141 kits.

@BrazeauRacing, what holster are you using for your Match 9mm? Since speed holsters are legal (which I just now learned), I will likely find me one that I like. How many mags do you carry per stage?

So here is where I am currently:

Witness Elite Match:

3 mags @ $22/ea: $66

3 H-141 Grams Kits @ $60/ea: $180

Witness Pavona:

1 mag @ $20/ea: $20

Kahr TP45:

XS 24/7 Express Night Sights @ $100/ea: $100

1 mag @ $27/ea: $27

Kahr CM9:

1 mag @ $27/ea: $27

Total: $420

Out of $550 that I'm picking up tomorrow, I have about $130 left to play with. I originally was planning on Henning's Blade-Tech "Sting-Ray" Belt Holster, but knowing now that speed holsters are legal in Limited, I may opt for one of those. If I need a little more money, I can back off on 2 of the mags, which will leave me with ~$170 or so, which will still leave me with 3 mags with the H-141 and Grams Kit.

Any recommendations for a good USPSA holster? Eventually I would like to have a good shooters belt (inner belt with an outer velco), with 2 mag pouches. I had been looking at the DAA Race Master setup, which is definitely not cheap and may not be compatible with my Match 9mm.

Lastly, the local club I'm looking at joining shoots USPSA matches monthly, with IPDA matches every other month. From what I read, mags in IPDA matches must be flush with the gun, and I don't think speed holsters are allowed, so my gun won't be IPDA legal, right? If not, that's fine...I wouldn't mind doing something with my Kahr TP45, actually.

Thanks again everyone.

Edited June 23, 2014 by tycoonbob