Vlad Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I'm curious if a production gun can have it magwell beveled. Is it an internal modification or external? I'm sure that under IPSC it is a no-no but how about USPSA? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I think that, as long as it remains completely internal, it is OK in USPSA Production. (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I think that, as long as it remains completely internal, it is OK in USPSA Production. (IMO) My P18 LDA has had so many mags shoved into it looks like someone took a file to it and opened up the bottom a little! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 that is (I have one, too) because the LDA is the only gun in the world where (I swear!) the magazine is larger than the magwell... IPSC even insists that a bevel is an external modification (logic being that, with a bevel, the internal and external portions) must match somewhere. I never asked Amidon, and I am unaware of a ruling, but I would think that bevels are nono's in USPSA, too. Just an assumption... --D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Just drop John an e-mail - you'll get an accurate answer...then let us know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 My Production Beretta EII comes with a factory magwell, but like everyone else it gets pretty beat up, especially with all those 10 rnd mag reloads. I polish it out on a pretty regular basis, especially before any type of big match. As far as I'm concerned it does not change the external profile of the gun, therefore it is internal polishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 John Amidon wrote to me: "Extended, beveled, or enlarged mag wells are not allowed in Production, technically, being as it is considered part of the grip body is another issue to look at along with whether it is external or internal." So the answer is no. I assume that if the factory sells it beveled you are good. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 thanks. A bit cryptic, but obviously no. Leaves open whether you can (as BerettaRacer does) indeed polish a banged-up mag opening or not.... Common sense would say yes. --D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 A bit cryptic, but obviously no. LOL. I'll agree with the cryptic part. I don't see an obvious answer in there anywhere.. Looks like JA managed to put 3 subjects into one sentence. "Extended, beveled, or enlarged mag wells are not allowed in Production, technically, being as it is considered part of the grip body is another issue to look at along with whether it is external or internal." - Extended, beveled, or enlarged mag wells are not allowed in Production... technically. Hmmmm...I just don't see that addresses in the USPSA Production rules anywhere. (Other than "external mods") - being as it is considered part of the grip body is another issue to look at OK...I can't see where a magwell could possibly be "part of the grip". Nobody is gripping the gun on the magwell/chute. That is a bit of a stretch. He does say grip "body", but that is adding words to 21.6 (and it seems clear that the intenet of 21.6 is something else). - along with whether it is external or internal I think this is the only issue that the written rules address. The gun has a front side and a back side...a left and right side...a top and bottom. You can (if you desire) measure the pieces/parts. If you take material off of an "external" part...if you change the external measurement...you are in violation of 21.5. If you keep the polishing "beveling" internal, you should be fine...the way the rules read. (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 There used to be 1911 grips that would overhang the bottom of the frame and provide a mag-well feature. Allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 There used to be 1911 grips that would overhang the bottom of the frame and provide a mag-well feature. Allowed? In Production? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I think this is the only issue that the written rules address. The gun has a front side and a back side...a left and right side...a top and bottom. You can (if you desire) measure the pieces/parts. If you take material off of an "external" part...if you change the external measurement...you are in violation of 21.5. If you keep the polishing "beveling" internal, you should be fine...the way the rules read. (IMO) I like this part - gives me a little hope of relief with my P18's mag opening. I hope I am not being to bold if I "slightly" radius the opening. You know - from repeatedly cramming in the mags. (or something) The Para magwell opening is an 1/8 of an inch thick on all sides. As long as the metal is not "worn" down to where it actually gets to the inner surface of the grip..... maybe I will not be called on modifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 More info .. I further asked: Thank you for your fast answer. I assume that if the bevel is put on as a standard factory feature when the gun was made then that does not break the rules? To which JA answered: That would be correct, but with 2000 having to be built before it wouldbecome legal may dampen this concept. Just sharing .. Don't you wish there was a website or something containing all these answers Wait ... Do we still have the 2000 thing? I though we had a list? What happens with all those "production" guns like the SP01 which are used in competition but of which only 100 where made? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 Also in the interest of clarity this is the message which I initially sent him, in case it makes the original answer less cryptic: I'm curious if beveling the inside of a steel magwell islegal for production division. What I mean by it is the slight opening of the existing magwell to assist magazine insertion, within the thickness of the grip body. Specificaly a number of steel guns (like the CZ) have a lot of steel on the rear of the magwell which could easilly be beveled out some without changing the outside profile of the gun. Of course it depends what "outside" means because you could see it from the outside. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 I requested some clarifications: I'm sorry but that is very confusing to me. I thought thatwe had a list for Production not a 2000 mark. Maybe I wasnt clear. In Production Division can the inside of the magwell (the one in which the mag fits, not an addon) be beveled? If no, is a gun with that feature from the factory legal for the Production division? If the Factory offers the same gun with and without the bevel, can the bevel be added to one sold without it? To which JA answered: You cannot alter the Production gun grips or mag well, if thefactory offers it as a bevel and it is on the Production gun approved list, it would be legal. Maybe this is more clear. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 (edited) Looks like we have an Answer, so I'm going to close this for now. PM me if more information appears. [edit: more questions appeared, so I opend it back up and merged the threads. KF] Edited January 6, 2005 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soligen Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I shoot a CZ 85 in USPSA production. When practicing mag changes, I noticed that sometimes the lips on the mags catch in the mag opening. The opening has a hard edge with no bevel. I'm thinking about a .5 mm or so bevel would smooth this out - just enough that the mag won't catch. There seems to be enough metal there that this would not be a problem - I would not have to add any parts, just file off a bit. Would this be legal to go in production? I'm not sure if this is external or internal, but would not be externally visible if the mag was inseted. Thanks Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Dennis, The rule that I think applies say no external modifications. And, I am pretty sure they mean it to include the magwell area (most likely, they mean it to include it in particular). MerlinD, The same would likely apply to your blaster. (In My Opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Soligen, do you practice reloads with dummy rounds on the mag? If not, try doing it. When I played with the CZ85 before, this helped prevent the lip-to-lip banging your experiencing. It would probably also help to condition yourself to pause at the mag opening and don't push through with the insertion. This one probably helped me more when running the square para mags in my 1911 which carried over to other guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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