JFlowers Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Rule 10.5.1 in the Dec 2004 USPSA Green Book states "10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer." Now, I know at one time there was some discussion of "popping" guns in holsters, in other words, pulling the pistol just past the lock of a holster and the letting it relock. John Amidon hand issues a rule interpretation that this was "handling" the firearm and even if it was just a tension habit needed to stop. My question concerns FirePoint/Optima/JPPoint sights. Does removing the cover from the sight mounted on the firearm (which acts as the sights on/off switch) and throwing it in the range bag while a shooter is "on deck" or "in the hole" count as "handling" the firearm? Or should this be done under the "Load and Make Ready" command only? Just looking to not develop bad habits that no one cares about at the local level and get me in trouble at the major match level! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Hopefully Vince will recover from his New Years libation enough to give a meaningful answer. Dealing only with the Optima/JP part of the question, personally I prefer to wait for the RO to give LAMR to remove the cover on my Optima. I make it the first thing and put it in my pocket, then I make sure the LED is on. Then I can load the gun and go. If you take the cover off early, chances are that you are still not going to be able to see if the LED is on. Getting ahead of yourself is a bad thing because MR. MURPHY might be your RO. Going to gun/scopecovers in general. When a shooter comes to me with a cover on, as an RO I clear the shooting area then ask the shooter if he wants to remove the cover before I give LAMR. At that point the shooter is under my direct control and if the gun falls out I can pick it up and return it to the shooter without it being a DQ. I also try to have eye contact with the shooter before I give LAMR so that he/she knows I am talking to them. I will do everything I can to allow the shooter to have fun on my stage as long as it does not infringe on the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 In my opinion this is not a problem. When you remove the cover from a scope, you are touching the gun but not 'handling' it in the context of the rules. The example you mention of 'popping' the gun past the holster lock is clearly handling as the gun is no longer supported by the holster. If removing the scope cover is 'handling' then so is brushing your hand on the gun while you bend over to brass or patch targets. I usually remove the cover from my Docter scope when I am called as on-deck, at the same time as I grab my brass bag and mentally get ready to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Hopefully Vince will recover from his New Years libation enough to give a meaningful answer. LeRoy, while I can't speak for Vince, I guess he won't be the right guy to ask this question. JFlowers asked for USPSA rules, thus I guess answer might come from USPSA guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 10.5.1 is the same in both the Jan 2004 IPSC rulebook and the Dec 2004 USPSA rulebook. So I would like to hear Vince's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Guess it will take a lot to hear from him, since he resigned from these forums... (here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Let's expand the question slightly. I have a cover that I use over my gun to keep the dust off the action. Removing this is similar to removing a scope or sight cover. When is the correct or best time to remove the covers or Walk-through straps? If you are removing it and the gun falls out, were you "Handling? or was it simply a dropped gun? If the former, it is a Match DQ, if on the otherhand it is simply a dropped gun, call the RO over and no foul. My practice is to wait till I get to the line and am under the supervision of the RO. I can then remove any covers and if I happen to knock my gun loose, as long as it doesn't fall I am good to go. If it is loosened in the holster, I can simply retain it and again no foul. It may be that we need to think about how this proceedure is performed. Should we have the RO call the line "Hot" so we can handle our gun under the rules? As in all things we need tobe cautious in handling a firearm. I opt to wait till I am on the line and handle only then. That way I have an RO at my side. THe alternate is to go to the nearest safety table and prep yourequipment before you are called to the line. Having a holster that securely locks your gun in is not a bad idea. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 IMO, removing your scope cover is not handling your gun, unless it comes out of the holster or has to be "popped" or something similar to get the scope cover off. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Should we have the RO call the line "Hot" so we can handle our gun under the rules? Jim, "Range is hot" is not in the rulebook (anymore) so it really doesn't change anything. JFlowers - Removing your scope cover or dustcover while your gun is in the holster is no problem whatsoever as long as you don't handle the gun itself. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 Thanks guys for the info. I emailed John Amidon and he got back to me very quickly. His opinion matched most of those here. While he did not think removing the scope cover was a violation of 10.5.1, his recommendation was to get in the habit of removing it as part of my response to LAMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 This is another one of those "I'll know it when I see it" cases that cause so much anguish when discussed online and not nearly so much on the range. For example, turning off a left-on dot or dry-gripping without moving the gun isn't usually handling, but say, racking the slide or field-stripping (completely possible in many holsters), usually is. It's either we use common sense (and an arb-comm if our senses gets offended), or add more pages to the rulebook. Which do we want? I'm going to lock this topic since the original question has been answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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