Rule 10.4.1 at urban ranges

[tomneal]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but...

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified, but the provisions of Section 2.3 may apply.

I don't like the thought of a round going over the berm. Many of the ranges I shoot at are in urban areas. A round over the berm could shut down a match and the entire range.

Under the Red Book rules you would DQ the shooter.

Under the Green Book rules, there is no penalty.

One solution is to put in a requrement that "Shots are fired while standing". That would mean a procedural for every shot fired.

Has anyone else come up with a better solution?

See you at the range

Tom Neal

[Shooter Grrl]

Tom,

I'm a little confused from your post. It is up to the match organizers to ensure that the stage is set up properly so that a round doesn't leave the range during the course of fire. What situation are your referring to here?

[Jim Norman]

Rule 10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other

direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match

organizers as being unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately

fires a shot at a target, which then travels in an unsafe

direction, will not be disqualified, but the provisions of Section

2.3 may apply.

2.3 allows the RM to alter the course so this situation does not occur.

I believe the question is what if a low port and the resultant angle of engagment sends a round over the berm.

The answer is to vet your stage prior to the start of the match. Going prone or squatting is low is a part of Action Shooting. Always look real hard at the staqes before the first shooter is up.

I agree that the rules should be amended so that any found that leaves a bay without irst hitting the berm or the ground should be grounds for a DQ. There is a presumption that the shooter is responsible for ultimate range safety.

Jim Norman

[John Heiter]

Well, actually the earlier arguement about this was what if a competitor trips and falls and while on the ground continues to fire at targets from an angle no one could have anticipated. If I fall three feet in front of a five foot at the shoulders IPSC target and go ahead and fire at it from the ground, those rounds are leaving the berm no matter what kind of backstop you have.

[Madmark]

One example that happened to me:

During a club level match, I was moving to a second shooting box on some freshly mowed grass. Upon reaching the box, my feet slid forward and landed me straight on my rear! I engaged the targets from my position and the score was allowed. However, if the first target had been a few feet closer, my rounds would have breached the berm. If an apparent violation was imminent, the R.O. should have stopped the string of fire, regardless of what the rules said.

If I only had a video of the event!!!

[Jim Norman]

My point is that the person withthe gun in hand is entirely and ultimately responsible for where the bullets go.

I would do this: A) any round that leaves the range without first impacting a berm (or is fired in an unsafe direction as set-out in the WSB) will subject the competitor to a MDQ. If the shooter due to tripping, slipping or what ever winds up in a position that would allow rounds to escape the range if he were to continue shooting, the RO SHALL STOP the competitor and order a reshoot. C) Any shooter that deliberately assumes a position that would cause item B to be involked in order to gain the advantage of a reshoot will receive a MDQ fro USLC.

How's that?

Jim Norman

[wide45]

No competitor can legitimately fire a shot that will not impact the backstop, no matter where the targets are.

I don't read 10.4.1 as absolving the competitor from insuring that his rounds will impact the backstop.

I think that it was meant to address situations beyond the competitors control.

If a round strikes a rock in the berm, and riccochet's out of the range, the competitor should not be DQ'ed.

[PhilTerry]

It's all too subjective especially c - take the example of a shooter who visits a particular range for the first time and is unaware that the grass, bushes and general vegetation are masking the fact that the actual berm is fairly low. Shooter finds what he thinks is a fast way to shoot the stage from a position that all the "locals" know will send rounds over the berm. You are going to DQ the shooter because he knows less about the local conditions than other people.

The only way for it to be fair is to put all the responsibility on the stage designer.

[tomneal]

I didn't give complete details.

Rumore-has-it that the situration that caused the rule change was a big name got DQed from a big match because he fell and engaged a target from the ground. The two Alpha hits went over the berm.

The rule was changed.

One way we keep bullets inside the berm is to DQ shooters when they send one out.

As a match director, you do vet your stages but...

you might not notice that if a target is engaged from 2' off the gound instead of 4' (a very short shooter) the round might go over the berm.

So, how do you stop it, within the rules?

[wide45]

The key to the rule is in the words "legitimately fires a shot at a target,".

Define that, and you know what the rule means.

I doubt that they meant that any shot at a target is automatically legitimate. If that was the case, they would have left out the word.

[Jim Norman]

When we walk a stage at our club, we generally squat low enough that any “reasonable” person would not shoot over the berm. As to grass or whatever "Obscuring the real height of a berm", that is a local range issue that should be addressed. I don't care how much local knowledge you have, if you look at the berm and think that it is high enough, you will eventually fire a shot over.

I believe that as long as your shot impacts in the range, a ricochet off a rock should not DQ a shooter. A shot fired over the berm is a DQ regardless of the reason. Call it UNSAFE GUNHANDLING if you have to, but anyone that finds a knothole in the wall to take a wild shot that will obviously go over the top needs to learn that that is beyond gaming and the way to do that is a DQ.

Obviously, stage design needs to be addressed so that the likelihood of this occurring is minimal.

Jim

[mactiger]

Conjecture, rumor, and speculation won't answer this question, nor will it stop rounds from leaving a range occasionally. The rule is clear: if a competitor legitimately fires a shot at a target, in a course of fire that was set up to allow freestyle solving of the problem, and that round leaves the range, then the people who set it up are to blame. Once it happens, it must be fixed. It should not happen--that's a given, but as long as courses of fire are set up to be shot freestyle, and course designers and set up people don't thoroughly inspect the course prior to the first shot being fired, it's going to be a problem.

When a competitor falls or ends up in a weird position, it is my opinion that the RO (who is in charge of safety on the range) must stop that competitor before he fires a shot that could leave the confines of the range. It's a judgement call, but erring on the safe side never hurts. A reshoot is better than a lawsuit or criminal charges.

Rounds leaving a range are dangerous and are probably the number one reason why shooting ranges are shut down. We have rules in place that say that you get DQ'd for causing a round to leave the range, but they don't prevent the action, they merely punish the offender. Designing and setting up courses of fire to alleviate the problem is the best answer, as is staying on one's toes as RO and taking the appropriate action when required.

Troy

[wide45]

I agree with everything you wrote, but you did not answer the question.

If the competitor does fire the shot that goes through a target, at an angle that will not impact the backstop, is he to be DQ'ed?

[mcoliver]

If you have a "low" berm stage, how about just putting targets really low on the ground and avoid the problem altogether?

[mactiger]

I agree with everything you wrote, but you did not answer the question.

If the competitor does fire the shot that goes through a target, at an angle that will not impact the backstop, is he to be DQ'ed?

Per the rules, no.

Troy

[Shooter Grrl]

Right - exactly what Troy said. I'm locking this one now, the question has been answered.