Shooting Flat

[infinity]

hi guys! is it possible to shoot flat using a limited/standard gun? what r the basic fundamentals of that, i.e., grip, gun modifications...etc. what r ur thoughts on this? thanks

jay

[wide45]

What is shooting flat, and why do you want to do it?

[spook]

I think shooting flat means reducing the upward travel of the muzzle to a minimum? I'd say: get some popeye forearms (to increase force and decrease tension) and experiment with your hand positions etc.

You want to be more like your avatar? Man, that guy shoots really flat

[mcoliver]

hi guys! is it possible to shoot flat using a limited/standard gun?

I've done a lot of the gun modifications part. The answer's not there.

Probably in recoil management technique, but it needs practice. So I'm still working on the gun.

[infinity]

Forgive me if i wasn't very clear with what i said.

spook,

ur right there, less muzzle flip. i've seen some videos and those guys there shoot as if they're shooting an open gun which is very awe-inspiring : do u think that it's possible to achieve that with just proper grip and arm posture? that guy on my avatar will beat any sppedshooter in the world....he experiences NO muzzle rise...SHOOTS DAMN FLAT!!!!

mcoliver,

what modifications have u done? btw, whats ur set up...jasonub recommends u when it comes to "kalikots" i'm setting up a sti long dust frame hoepfully by january it'll be finish.

thanks

infinity

[BSeevers]

ur right there, less muzzle flip. i've seen some videos and those guys there shoot as if they're shooting an open gun which is very awe-inspiring 

Well if you have seen it on film then its possible.

If you are looking for the "magic" gun, stance or grip to do it for you then that's not on the correct path. Yes the difference in a Masters split on a Limited vs Open gun is not really that different. The Open is faster on hard partial targets but in raw shot to shot on open targets at say at 10 yards you are talking a difference of .05 or less. That type of shooting is achieved through much practice of proper technique.

Open guns also reload about 1/3 of the time that a Limited one does so that's a great time saver too.

[wide45]

Open guns also reload about 1/3 of the time that a Limited one does so that's a great time saver too.

You lost me.

Do you mean that in most stages an open gun will not have to reload, but a limited gun will?

[Sam]

Jay, yes it is certainly possible for a properly set up limited gun to track flatter than a box stock gun that hasn't been 'smithed. It is also a certainty that a shooter with a solid understanding of recoil and a great deal of practice can make a gun track as flat as those guys on the video. The gun mods can be as simple as changing spring rates, to major mods like bull barrels and slide lightening cuts. A lot of gun set-up is personal preference.

Anyone can buy an exact copy of the gun the top competitors shoot for $2,000 to $3,000, but it won't make them shoot a great deal better. A much greater commitment of time and money than a simple $2,000 investment is required to shoot like the guys you've seen on video. It's kinda like wondering if anybody with a good guitar could pick it like Doc Watson. Yeah, it's possible......

What you do with the information you've received so far depends on whether the ability to shoot like that is just an item of passing interest to you, or a burning passion. It's a long road, but a good one.

[BSeevers]

Open guns also reload about 1/3 of the time that a Limited one does so that's a great time saver too.

You lost me.

Do you mean that in most stages an open gun will not have to reload, but a limited gun will?

Yes Limited at 20 sees a lot of stages that need a reload.

28 or 29 rds usually means very few reloads. I shot a lot of majors with 3 mags. 1 big stick and 2 regulars for mandatory reload stage.

[mcoliver]

mcoliver,

what modifications have u done? btw, whats ur set up...jasonub recommends u when it comes to "kalikots"    i'm setting up a sti long dust frame hoepfully by january it'll be finish.

thanks

infinity

I shoot a frankenized armscor, so that's all steel. As for the mods, lets see:

1. I've tried recoil springs from 8 to 15#, variable and straight.

2. I've tried thin and thick buffs, putting up to 3 at a time in the gun.

3. Thin and bull barrels.

4. Short and long dust covers.

5. Regular and full profile slides.

6. With and without grips.

7. Hammer springs from cut 15#'ers to 20#

8. Firing pin stops from square to really rounded

9. Triggers from the very long to the short.

10. Regular full-length steel, short steel and tungsten guide rods.

Some other few mods here and there and a combination of the stuff I've listed that made my head hurt. Some combo I shot side by side with my gun and another's.

Once, I found out the flattest combo for my setup and load. I was very excited and brought it to a match. And made very little to no difference. Btw, have I told you about my load experiments as well?

You will see as I've found out you can do lots to your gun yet not find the answer you seek. I really think it has got to be in the practice part. That's why, as I've said, I'm still working on my gun.

Edited December 20, 2004 by mcoliver

[infinity]

Sam, would lightening the slide add up to the "flat" shot?

mcoliver,

who's ur 'smith? do u think it's advisable to put flutings on the frame? for a beginner like me would u suggest lightening the slide and frame? where do u practice? thanks

jay

[Jake Di Vita]

From my limited knowledge of gunsmithing.

I don't think lightening a slide on a limited gun is that great an idea. Most of the time they do it on open guns to get it to cycle faster. With the comp and what-not, there is not going to be much muzzle rise anyway.

The more weight you take out of your slide, the more the non-ported gun is going to flip.

[mcoliver]

mcoliver,

who's ur 'smith? do u think it's advisable to put flutings on the frame? for a beginner like me would u suggest lightening the slide and frame? where do u practice? thanks

jay

Col. Bayang made that gun. You can reach him at tel# 840-1362. I've also heard good things about Metrillo (try to PM jasonub for the contact no.)

If you're starting out, I'd suggest you build the gun as is and just hold off on the chrome job. That way, if you ever feel the need to have the long dust milled or fluted or the slide lightend externally, you won't be paying extra for the re-finishing.

I regularly practice with Jason in the Marine Range inside the Fort. If you can drop by one Sunday, I'm sure he'll let you handle his SV. That way you can at least get an idea of the things you may want.

[Sam]

mc, that is a beautiful gun!

Jay, the theory of a lightened slide lessening recoil revolves around lowering the mass of the moving parts. You put more weight in the bull barrel and frame and take a little off the slide and the felt recoil should be less. There is another thread around here fairly recently on this subject. Lot's of good info there, I'd search for it.

Pay close attention to Jake's post. He's one of those guys who can make the gun shoot real flat, like the guys in the video.

Get someone to video tape you while shooting some drills. Learn what your own recoil control looks like from another angle. Experiment. Get a shooting partner. (GM would be nice!)

[MoNsTeR]

It's not about the gun. I've seen Paul Clark Jr. shoot exactly the way you describe (gun just doesn't move), and his gun is as plain as can be. Long dustcover, classic slide with no lightening cuts, bull barrel.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it's more about leaning into the gun, and really putting the weak hand to work in the grip.

[vincent]

Monster hit the nail right on the head. It is about stance and grip.

I recently took a class and per the instructor's recommendation I modified my stance and grip to help increase recoil control. It has made a huge difference in how "flat" the gun shoots. No changes to load or gun were made.

The pointers were simple:

- Use an aggressive, athletic stance where you lean forward at the waist.

- Keep a slight bend in your elbows - don't lock out.

- Get the support hand very high on the gun and cam the support hand down to get the meat of the support hand interlocked with the dominant hand. Use a strong support hand grip.

Any time you change something it feels odd, but the timer and video don't lie.

It seems to always come back to the basics.

[Pierruiggi]

I've seen Paul Clark Jr. shoot exactly the way you describe (gun just doesn't move), and his gun is as plain as can be. Long dustcover, classic slide with no lightening cuts, bull barrel.

No disrespect intended towards you or Mr. Clark, but a long dustcover, bull barreled handgun isn't "as plain as it can be", at least from my perspective. A "plain as it can be" for me would be a Production gun, for example.

Anyways, I know the original poster refers to the Standard Division, so...

I see you ask on basic and fundamentals for "flatter shooting"; well, I believe the fundamentals never lie in equipment. They are always in the shooter, in his/her technique, mindset, regularity, etc. I could get in a shootoff with a tricked out full house custom open blaster against BE with a single shot blackpowder muzzleloader pistol and he'd probably beat me anyways.

That said, there are lots of options to "tune" or adapt your handgun to your shooting style (heavy or light recoil guides, long or short dustcovers, lightened slides, lightened frames, steel or polymer frames, etc.), but without solid fundamentals, they will only work as crutches at best or hinder your evolution as a shooter at worst.

[MoNsTeR]

Of course I meant "plain" as in lacking any fancy lightening cuts, weights, gizmos, or other careful tuning. Compared with one of Bob L.'s guns or a crazy lightened longslide (like mine), the equivalent of an STI Edge is pretty run-of-the-mill.

Anyway, Sevigny can do it with a Glock so there you go

[blackdragon]

Your House is only as strong as it's foundation!

Ivan

[schmitz]

One of the guys in my team used to shoot a Limited Bul M5, unmodified and with almost no muzzle-flip.

Once upon a time I asked him: how do you do this? His secret: a firm grip on the gun!

He squeezes the grip of his gun so tight that the mags won't fall out unless he weakens his grip!

This guy won the Dutch Open in 1997 in Standard.

[spook]

I think a tight grip helps. But you shouldn't be tense while gripping. Strong grip, no tension.

[Even]

Spook is right.

Important to remember which hand that really grips the gun...and the placement of that hand...

even

[Dalmas]

I've been commented on shooting very flat but I also cheat . I use a thumbrest and with rather big hands I can place my thumbrest very close to the muzzle. Legal in IPSC but not USPSA (I think). I love it and I've had no problems with over stearing the gun with my weak hand thumb...

I my oppinion thumb rest only work for people with large hands since it has to be placed as far in front of the center of gravity as possible to have any effect.

[Skywalker]

My guess is that this whole shooting flat stuff is based on an premise that might not hold true for anybody: if the gun shoots flat (or if we can hold the gun steady enought not to rise with recoil) we'll be able to shoot a subsequent shot faster.

I don't believe this is always true, at least for everybody.

Let me explain: in dynamic shooting, one of the most important parts is (or should be) how fast you're able to fire the shot, provided it's accurate (at this point, we'll assume we're all capable of sufficient accuracy, being given the necessary amount of time).

Now, shooting a fast shot is the result of a long serie of determining factors (among which how fast can you acquire the target, what is your accpetable wobble zone for that shot, etc.), the least of which is how much muzzle rise you get from your gun. I'd say it's the least important because it only affects second (and subsequent) shots on the same target.

Now, some top shooters and instructors (among which our own host) have adviced that consistency of muzzle rise and return is more important (timewise too) to them than the mere fact of being able to minimize or stop muzzle rise at all.

I'm not questioning if this is true or not, I'm only stating that this shooting flat stuff is not the universal key, it works for some, it doesn't for others.

Infinity,

if what you're looking for is the capability of firing fast subsequent shots on the same target, and you got the impression (watching a local top competitor shooting) that this is achieved by eliminating muzzle rise, I'd strongly suggest you to discuss this matter with him, or whomever else you might trust to teach you something, because it's my feeling that the limited or no muzzle rise at all might be a by-product of other principles/techniques at work, while the speed they display on subsequent shots is determined by different factors.

[spook]

Now, some top shooters and instructors (among which our own host) have adviced that consistency of muzzle rise and return is more important (timewise too) to them than the mere fact of being able to minimize or stop muzzle rise at all.

I think what Brian meant by that is that "attempt to decrease muzzle rise" should not be accomplished by compromising consistent sight tracking.

But if you could be consistent and decrease muzzle rise, it would definately be more comfortable to shoot that way. I think it's the same discussion as major vs. minor in speed shooting. Some claim there's no difference, because they can shoot most drills just as fast with major ammo as with minor ammo. But shooting minor is more comfortable.