legal hand position

[Loves2Shoot]

Devils Advocate Mode:

My arms and hands are always totally relaxed. "Arms relaxed at sides" says NOTHING about your shoulders. I can have my shoulders cocked any which way or direction as long as my arms are still hanging naturally at sides.

Go ahead and let the rest of the shooters laugh and at you for standing there looking like a tosser That is the best way to break people from doing things that are silly, constant riddicule. There are those who know how to do things properly and those who wish they did

[Vince Pinto]

We're arguing about two different things here:  You appear to be coming at this from the "Every Competitor will assume the exact same start position, facing in the same direction" position.  There's nothing wrong with that if it's specified that way in the written stage briefing.

I fully appreciate that some WSBs (and some great ones too), give a lot of latitude to competitors in respect of the Start Position, and I wouldn't have it any other way, but that's not my point. We come unstuck when typical expressions used in WSBs, which mean only one thing to you and me, are interpreted by "gamers" to such an extent, that it borders on cheating,

As I've repeatedly stated, you will never see a WSB from me just saying "Gun On Table", and I doubt any other experienced RM would make the same mistake. I also doubt there are many competitors out there who would want to take advantage of a less-than-perfect written briefing to demand that they be allowed to prop their gun upright. And, apart from one incident I encountered a few years back, I can't imagine a competitor trying to argue that he is complying with the "facing uprange" requirement of the WSB if he has his body facing downrange but his face facing uprange. To me, that's a blatant attempt at cheating, and it's just not going to happen on my watch.

Sure, the RO can use Rule 3.2.3 to summon the RM and ask him to improve the briefing, and I can't imagine that an RM who let something slip the first time round would allow the ambiguity to continue, provided the RO states that he has not permitted any other competitor to adopt the extreme interpretation.

However I hope and pray that competitors will continue to be gracious enough to accept that the RO is not trying to screw them by stating the acceptable go/no go parameters of the WSB without having to summon the RM.

[Jake Di Vita]

L2S,

First, I really don't care whether other shooters laugh at me or not. The ones that laugh most likely aren't any good anyway and the ones that don't are the people who know "to each his own."

If you are implying that because I have my shoulders cocked before the draw that I don't know what I'm doing, I totally resent that. I guarantee that I can find very "silly" things you do when you shoot...it's the same with everyone....I wouldn't ridicule you about them or even mention it if it worked.

[Jim Norman]

We're arguing about two different things here:  You appear to be coming at this from the "Every Competitor will assume the exact same start position, facing in the same direction" position.  There's nothing wrong with that if it's specified that way in the written stage briefing.

I fully appreciate that some WSBs (and some great ones too), give a lot of latitude to competitors in respect of the Start Position, and I wouldn't have it any other way, but that's not my point. We come unstuck when typical expressions used in WSBs, which mean only one thing to you and me, are interpreted by "gamers" to such an extent, that it borders on cheating,

As I've repeatedly stated, you will never see a WSB from me just saying "Gun On Table", and I doubt any other experienced RM would make the same mistake. I also doubt there are many competitors out there who would want to take advantage of a less-than-perfect written briefing to demand that they be allowed to prop their gun upright. And, apart from one incident I encountered a few years back, I can't imagine a competitor trying to argue that he is complying with the "facing uprange" requirement of the WSB if he has his body facing downrange but his face facing uprange. To me, that's a blatant attempt at cheating, and it's just not going to happen on my watch.

Sure, the RO can use Rule 3.2.3 to summon the RM and ask him to improve the briefing, and I can't imagine that an RM who let something slip the first time round would allow the ambiguity to continue, provided the RO states that he has not permitted any other competitor to adopt the extreme interpretation.

However I hope and pray that competitors will continue to be gracious enough to accept that the RO is not trying to screw them by stating the acceptable go/no go parameters of the WSB without having to summon the RM.

This is interesting.

So, since there are great WSB's that give great latitude to the shooter these WSB's that meet the definition of great as decided by an RO would be given the benefit of not being restricted, while the same WSB's would be restricted because in the opinion of some other RO need to be clarified.

Just who is the great arbitrator of fairness here? Who should be deciding outside of the rules when latitude is OK and when it is not?

Why is is a "Mistake" to say gun on table, any more or less than to say start position standing in FFZ-A?

What is extreme? Who decides? If you have a problem as an RO with an ambiguity in the WSB, then call the RM over and ask if there is a change that can or should be made. Remember, not all matches have a dedicated RO on every stage. What would you do if you were at a club match with 70 shooters with 7 squads of 10, you get to the last stage and see a start that says Gun on Table. I come up and set my gun on the mag well, you stop me. I know that others have done this in prior squads. The stage is now presenting a different challenge to me, than to the other shooters.

Or, I decide to stand "facing uprange" with my head turned as far as I can and my body twisted as far as I can so that my turn is reduced. You say, no, I have to have my back square and face directly at the back of the stage. Again, I know that others have not had to do this. What is the disposition of this stage? Do we get 60 people to reshoot? do we toss out the stage?

I understand that at an Area Match, this may not be a problem since the RO is the same for the entire match. But we are talking about a fairly large club match here. The RO's are traveling with their respective squads.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

What would you do if you were at a club match with 70 shooters with 7 squads of 10, you get to the last stage and see a start that says Gun on Table. I come up and set my gun on the mag well, you stop me. I know that others have done this in prior squads. The stage is now presenting a different challenge to me, than to the other shooters.

Or, I decide to stand "facing uprange" with my head turned as far as I can and my body twisted as far as I can so that my turn is reduced. You say, no, I have to have my back square and face directly at the back of the stage. Again, I know that others have not had to do this.  What is the disposition of this stage? Do we get 60 people to reshoot? do we toss out the stage?

Which part of my statement "provided the RO states that he has not permitted any other competitor to adopt the extreme interpretation" which you quoted in your message is unclear?

[John Baier]

L2S- Whats a tosser?

[Vince Pinto]

L2S- Whats a tosser?

It's a British term for "a jerk"

[Rockclimbg]

My mini revelation from reading all these post is to just be fluid from multiple positions, it seems to me that as long as the hands do not loose any momentum when grabbing the firearms and everything is done with economy of motion in mind. It's probably actually beneficial to draw from as many positions as possible just for the sake of breaking the monotony (probably not as hard on your shoulder either, wonder how many of us will end up with some serious tendonitis from all the repetitive motions.)

anyway, thanks again for all the replies.

Rockclimbg

[John Baier]

Thanks Vince

As I am progressing in my ROing duties I have noticed that I am getting stricter in enforcing start positions. i.e. gun on table, hands relaxed at sides and wrists above respective shoulders. We must as RO's insure at all competitors comply to stage procedures as written. For example, propping a gun on table is an issue that should be addressed and or changed during the RO walkthru not half way thru a match. That being said, being tense in your start position is putting you as a shooter at a disadvantage before the buzzer even sounds. relax and have fun

[Jim Norman]

What would you do if you were at a club match with 70 shooters with 7 squads of 10, you get to the last stage and see a start that says Gun on Table. I come up and set my gun on the mag well, you stop me. I know that others have done this in prior squads. The stage is now presenting a different challenge to me, than to the other shooters.

Or, I decide to stand "facing uprange" with my head turned as far as I can and my body twisted as far as I can so that my turn is reduced. You say, no, I have to have my back square and face directly at the back of the stage. Again, I know that others have not had to do this.  What is the disposition of this stage? Do we get 60 people to reshoot? do we toss out the stage?

Which part of my statement "provided the RO states that he has not permitted any other competitor to adopt the extreme interpretation" which you quoted in your message is unclear?

Lets try it all again.

You are an EMBEDDED RO!, you are not on the stage for all 70 shooters. You have not witnessed how the other 60 shooters shot this COF. I have it on good authority, (I was returning from a short trip to the head and I saw two shooters actually start in the position that you are disallowing)

So while I understand that you have not allowed any shooter to start in this particular position, remember, I am the first one you will be starting on this stage, this statement has no bearing. Other ROs have allowed the start in question.

My question is, "If you will not allow me a start that others have made, what rule do you cite to get that authority?"

I fully understand, that at a higher level match, call it an Area Match or maybe a Sectional or even a Nationals, that there would be DEDICATED RO staff. This is not the question here.

I am the very first shooter on your squad where you are serving as the EMBEDDED RO. I am the 61st shooter to start on this stage, meaning at least 60 other shooters have already shot this match without the benifit of your restictions being placed upon their starting position. What is the outcome? How will we handle this? Feel free to call the RM over. I have witnessed others starting in this position as have other people. Do we have to have them all reshoot? do we toss the stage? I am placed at a competitive disadvantage here due to the restriction placed upon me that none of the prior squads have had.

Your ball

Jim Norman

[wide45]

And somebody somewhere mentioned "Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner" from Rule 1.1.5, but since when is adopting the Start Position part of the challenge?

Moreover, if you want to argue that "freestyle" starts at LAMR, then why the hell do we have to stand in a box, or face a certain direction, or prepare our gun in a certain way? If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start?

The answer is that we require consistency with the Start Position, because the separation of the men from the boys is decided after the Start Signal.

Ectually, 1.1.5 states that "IPSC Matches are Freestyle."

The Entire Match

We don't march from stage to stage. We have instructions on which stage to go to, beyond that, it's freestyle. Like the start position.

[Vince Pinto]

You are an EMBEDDED RO!, you are not on the stage for all 70 shooters. You have not witnessed how the other 60 shooters shot this COF. I have it on good authority, (I was returning from a short trip to the head and I saw two shooters actually start in the position that you are disallowing).

This is the crux of our disagreements on most topics - I'm trying to raise the bar at Level I and Level II matches, not treat them as the shooting equivalent of Romper Room. Hence the primary message of this week's lesson has been to prepare crystal clear written stage briefings, so that no RO interpretation or guidance is necessary.

I've given you numerous examples of how simple English expressions, commonly used at IPSC matches, can be interpreted to extreme levels (e.g. "facing uprange", "fingers intertwined" etc.), and these can dramatically affect the outcome of a match. It's therefore arguably more important to obviate any ambiguity at lower level matches, where you don't have a dedicated RO assigned to each stage where reasonable consistency can be maintained.

Of course I realise that you're actually objecting to the messenger, not the message, and so be it, but I hope others might have learnt something from these marathon exchanges.

[Vince Pinto]

We don't march from stage to stage.  We have instructions on which stage to go to, beyond that, it's freestyle.  Like the start position.

Really? OK then, answer my question (which you quoted, but ignored, in your reply):

"Moreover, if you want to argue that "freestyle" starts at LAMR, then why the hell do we have to stand in a box, or face a certain direction, or prepare our gun in a certain way? If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start?"

[Jake Di Vita]

Vince,

The reason there is a start position is exactly what you said....There has to be a level of consistency.

That being said. The start position, whether it be in box, on X's, whatever, is ALWAYS stipulated in the course description, and as such must be followed.

IPSC follows the rule book to the letter. That being said, everything that is stipulated in the course description must be followed. However, if something is not in the course description, and a shooter finds a more effective (but still safe) way of assuming the start position while still following the guidelines in the course description, I don't see how that is breaking any rule.

If consistency is the goal, every shooter should shoot every stage exactly the same. Since we know that violates the very premise of IPSC, that would never happen.

The fact is that if during a stage, the shooter can do whatever the heck he wants (assuming it is safe and follows the course description), there is absolutely no logical reason to not start a competitor based on the fact he didn't do it like the last guy (who had every opportunity to figure out the better way of doing things).

Everything in the course description must be followed to the letter....after that it's freestyle.

[Flexmoney]

Well said. I like the message.

[Jim Norman]

So are we now saying that if we want to have a club match we must use two or more days? Lets see, we'll all take off a day, build the match, then the ROs can shoot. On Sunday the rest of the people will show up and shoot then we can tear down. Oh, I forgot, there are only 15 people shooting this match, there are 5 stages, so do we now have 5 people shoot on the RO squad while everyone waits? or do we have everyone wait after the match so that the RO squad can shoot and then tear it down?

Maybe some rich benefactor will hire a staff of stage builders and professional ROs and send them around to clubs so we can all get to shoot with our friends.

Many of us spend several nights preparing for a match, then show up a the range 3-4 hours early, we build a match with 5-8 stages, we shoot it, then after most people have gone home, we stay there and tear it all down and put it a way. After the match we then have the scores to do and the awards to get out. Often the idea of building the match a day early comes up, the problem is many people drive two hours to get to the range, and the clubs don't want to lose two days for a one day match, there may be other events using the same space the day before.

All this leads us back to having embedded ROs. We write a WSB and we read it. If the WSB says it, it is there, if it does not, then it isn't there and we are free to start or run in any manner consistent with the other applicable rules.

A perfect example being our old friend, "Gun On Table". Nik put it well, If we specify a table start and we want the gun to lay on its side due to a less than stable table or barrel, we say so. If on the other hand, we have a rock solid table, then we might not say so. If we want the gun to be on the X we put an X on the table and tell you in the WSB that the gun must be on the X. The one thing we don't allow is the RO to make up his own interpretation of the WSB. When we have our match briefs, we will point out certain things that are on the stages and tell the squads what is intended, just to make sure that the ROs don’t add in inadvertently any additional commentary.

I am sure that there are places where a 10 person local match may have dedicated ROs that maybe are not shooting, maybe you all hire them, I don't know and I really don't care. We strive for freestyle and we strive to have fun while we do it here. We are not looking for what are euphemistically referred to as "Range Nazis" That is ROs that add in there own explanations of start positions or stage procedures. Question: May I leave the FFZ and reenter it in order to cut off time and distance? The FFZ is “L”: or “T” shaped. In the WSB there is no comment made, and being a freestyle sport the CORRECT answer is of course YES, you may, but if you start shooting again while you are outside the FFZ you will incur penalties as provided for in the rules. WRONG answer, I haven’t let or seen anyone else do that so you can’t. This is the same thing we are discussing regarding start position.

The question to be asked is: When does the COF start? At LAMR or at the Start Signal? The rules say the COF starts with the LAMR Command, so since this is a freestyle sport, I say that freestyle starts with LAMR. In other words, if it ain’t in the WSB it ain’t there!

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

The question to be asked is: When does the COF start? At LAMR or at the Start Signal? The rules say the COF starts with the LAMR Command, so since this is a freestyle sport, I say that freestyle starts with LAMR.

Really? In that case if freestyle begins with the LAMR command, why can't I prepare my gun exactly the same why I like, and stand anywhere I like in the FFZ, for all courses of fire. Surely even stating "Gun On Table" is dictating what I can do after when you say freestyle begins (i.e. with the LAMR command).

But then Wide45 says "We don't march from stage to stage. We have instructions on which stage to go to, beyond that, it's freestyle. Like the start position". In other words, he says freestyle begins from the moment you arrive at the stage. Hell, at this rate, freestyle will commence at your home before you leave for the match (e.g. ham & eggs on table?)

Then I just stumbled across Rule 8.3.4 which says "Start Signal - The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire". Maybe this is when actually freestyle begins (and maybe that's why we start the timer)?

I'm so confused.

[Jim Norman]

The question to be asked is: When does the COF start? At LAMR or at the Start Signal? The rules say the COF starts with the LAMR Command, so since this is a freestyle sport, I say that freestyle starts with LAMR.

Really? In that case if freestyle begins with the LAMR command, why can't I prepare my gun exactly the same why I like, and stand anywhere I like in the FFZ, for all courses of fire. Surely even stating "Gun On Table" is dictating what I can do after when you say freestyle begins (i.e. with the LAMR command).

Because we are discussing what the parameters of the WSB are and what they allow.

Yes this sport is freestyle, but just like we have certain limits on equipmet, the WSB sets certain limits on the COF. You may not shoot outside the FFZ. You may not engage steel closer than 7 meters, you may not point your gun uprange, and so on.

If the WSB places a limit on the start, then you must abide by it, however, if there is no limit placed on you by the WSB, the RO cannot just add his own. He, just as the shooter is bound, is bound by the WSB.

The WSB says, starting with an unloaded gun, are you now going to argue that since the sport is freestyle that this doesn't apply and that you can now load your gun anyway?

Are you gong to say that the WSB even though it states that you must stand with the toes of your feet (as contained within your shoes) must touch the X's on the rear fault line and that you must have your back square to the backstop, and that your arms must be fully extended up in the air above their respective shoulders, that all of this would not apply?

Get real.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

The WSB says, starting with an unloaded gun, are you now going to argue that since the sport is freestyle that this doesn't apply and that you can now load your gun anyway?

Are you gong to say that the WSB even though it states that you must stand with the toes of your feet (as contained within your shoes) must touch the X's on the rear fault line and that you must have your back square to the backstop, and that your arms must be fully extended up in the air above their respective shoulders, that all of this would not apply?

No. You said "I say that freestyle starts with LAMR", not me. So, if it starts at LAMR, how can you require me to adopt a particular Start Position or Gun Ready Condition?

And if you require the stage to have the same number of targets, and that they be placed in the same location, and that the charge and fault lines be identical for you as they were for the last competitor, how can you possibly expect to be allowed to adopt a unique and/or extreme Start Position (such as my "facing uprange" example)?

[Jim Norman]

Within the parameters set but the applicable rules and the WSB this is a freestyle sport.

If you want to require the shooter to stand in a particular place or if you want the shooter to do certain things, you must put it in the WSB.

If it is not contained in the rules or the WSB, then it isn't there. Period.

As an example, There is a door, behind the door are two targets. The WSB does not say that the shooter must open the door and it further doens't state that the door threshold is a fault or charge line. In fact the shooter would normally open the door and engage the two targets as he ran through, but, I see a little bit of wiggle room and decide that if I run the course in a particular fashion, I can step around the wall containing the door and engage the targets. This of course assumes that the area beyond the door is within the FFZ. You as RO cannot tell me that I can't do this. Even if due to stage design, it allows me as the last shooter to cut out 20% of the time that the next fastest shooter had.

If however the WSB requires shooters to pass through the doorway, then you may require me to do so and infact penalize me if I don't. I realize that his particular stage would not be seen at a large match, but would occur under the exemptions for a level 1. Normally at a larger match thse target would not be engagable from anywhere but through the doorway and you would not be able to not shoot through the open doorway and still be in the FFZ.

The same goes for the start position. If the WSB says stand in a particular place, then you must, if it merely says stand in the FFZ, then anywhere, any way is OK. Same for the loaded conditon of the pistol. If the WSB says loaded and holstered, there is no reason I must insert a round intot he chamber of my gun. The rules say a auto-loading pistol with a charged magazine inserted is a loaded gun. For whatever reason I might want to, I can simply insert a mag and not rack the slide, you cannot tell me I must, that is against the new rules about teling the shooter that he ahs failed to load and it is also against the rules whereby the RO cannot demand anything beyond the WSB. If the WSB says Gun on Table, then that is all you are allowed to enforce. And that part must be enforced, the gun cannot be hovering above the table, it must actually be resting on the table! The WSB is the governing statement of how the stage is to be run. It is to be followed as to the level of ambiguity it contains to the letter. You cannot add to it. The RM can, but should do so cautioiusly.

TO argue that freestyle allows you to totally disreard hte WSB is a hollow argument. It make no more sense than saying that since I didn't shoot you, theat my 180 break should be grounds for a DQ, after all, this is freestyle, why can't I point my gun uprange as long as no one is hurt?

[Flexmoney]

Time out for the kids.

[Shooter Grrl]

And still I see a lot of shooters that have bent arms, the right arm seems a bit shorter than the left, and the left arm has a position in front of the body with the palm of the hand towards their stomachs, as if they are in pain or something and they still claim "it's natural, hanging loose, see - no strain at all"

If I was your RO you'd get told to assume the correct start position.