legal hand position

[Rockclimbg]

I've been working with my draw starting position using production gear (blade-tech belt holster and Glock35.)

I'm wondering how close can you start with your hand to the grip of the gun?

If I start with my elbow touching the gun grip and my hand at about mid thigh (or a few inches higher, I'm in the 1.20 second range. Which seems pretty slow.

If I start "rolling" my hand off the grip to a starting position that is much closer to the gun (about 6-8inches), I am getting around 1.0 second draws at 7 yards and sometimes in the .95-.98 range with still seeing good hits.

Now I'm starting to wonder how far can you push the rules and how close can your hand be to the grip when you are in a starting position. Can anyone post pics of closest to the gun allowed start position. I would say "the perfect" start position but I know will vary from person to person.

Any help appreciated.

Rockclimbg

[Jim Norman]

Frankly aslong as the WSB does not specify a particular position you can put your hand about anywhere you want, just don't touch your gun.

Jim Norman

[Loves2Shoot]

I would say "the perfect" start position but I know will vary from person to person.

Arms hanging fully extended, relaxed at sides. All the gimicks aren't any faster.

[Neil Beverley]

Rule 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides.

Therefore the requirement is as per the description from Loves2Shoot. The hand hovering within 6 inches of the gun doesn't conform with the rule.

[RogerT]

And still I see a lot of shooters that have bent arms, the right arm seems a bit shorter than the left, and the left arm has a position in front of the body with the palm of the hand towards their stomachs, as if they are in pain or something and they still claim "it's natural, hanging loose, see - no strain at all"

[Garfield]

Yeah I know what you mean.

As L2S and Neil said, the arms should be fully extended, hanging naturally.

This is a sort of silly game between RO's and competitors.

I notice that a lot of RO's find it difficult to say something when the shooter isn't fully relaxed. And it's difficult to really tell what exactly is relaxed and what is not. I feel it's a little bit of a grey area. When someone curves their fingers a little bit, I let them do it, but when I notice that the arms are raised by more than an inch or so, I tell the shooter to relax before I continue with the start procedure.

(Assuming that the start position per the briefing is "standing relaxed" of course)

[RogerT]

Most COF has the "standing relaxed, arms hanging naturally at the sides" start position, yet most shooters assume a "track and field" 1500 yd runner start stance!

And gets away with that!

I'm to old and slow so it would make me look rather silly in that stance, so a I try to look like I'm standing in line, waiting for the bus .

[Vince Pinto]

Folks,

This is precisely why I've repeatedly stated that the RO has a right to ensure consistency with the Start Position, and it seems that the only person who agrees with me is Gary Stevens, God bless him!

Unless there are special markings on a charge line, it doesn't matter whether you stand to the left, to the right or at dead centre. Unless there's an "X" marked on the FFZ, you can stand anywhere the hell you want. Unless there are footprints painted on the range floor inside the wooden frame, you can stand anywhere you like inside the frame.

However there are numerous other expressions commonly used in IPSC written stage briefings which are open to broad (and sometimes silly) interpretations, and the ones I've highlighted in other threads include "Fingers intertwined", "Facing Uprange", "Facing Downrange", "Toes", "Box" and so on, and this thread alludes to "Hands hanging naturally", which means different things to different people.

I'm gonna take my medication now, before my head explodes

[Dead Buff]

....so a I try to look like I'm standing in line, waiting for the bus .

That is what I think is meant in the rules....

Please adopt the "bus-waiting-stance"....

[Skywalker]

Vince,

let me explain it better.

We do not disagree in principle on the starting position.

I guess we disagree on some possible applications.

I mean: if the MD or the RM wants to have an absolutely defined starting position, that all competitors have to comply with, fine, I can accept it as long as it clearly written down in the WSB.

Usually, to avoid any kind of problem on this, our WSBs say, after some generic directions, "...as demonstrated by the RO.". This ensures the consistency you're advocating, and everybody shall comply with it.

Where we don't agree is when the MD/RM wants to leave some degree of liberty to the competitor with the starting position: in this case, the WSB will give only general directions, leaving the competitor free to assume the starting position (compliant with the WSB) he prefers. According to your assertions, there is no such degree of freedom: everybody have to start the very same way.

IMHO, and in the opinion of others here, if such freedom is granted by the WSB, it should not be denied.

Your opinion?

[Vince Pinto]

Where we don't agree is when the MD/RM wants to leave some degree of liberty to the competitor with the starting position: in this case, the WSB will give only general directions, leaving the competitor free to assume the starting position (compliant with the WSB) he prefers.

The thing which kicked off these multiple, marathon arguments was the thread about "Gun on table", and whether or not an RO has the right to dictate that the gun must be laid on it's side, despite a possibly vague WSB.

As I suggested in my reply above, a good WSB gives competitors reasonable leeway, such as where to stand behind a charge line (e.g. left, centre or right), but as I've explained ad nauseum (and leave my Latin the hell alone!) in other threads, there can be numerous interpretations of some expressions which you and I take for granted (see my extreme example about "Facing Uprange" in this thread).

My primary task as an RO is safety. My second task is to assist all competitors equally, and without fear or favour. The best way I can do that is by not influencing the outcome of a match, such as by not observing the misguided "benefit of doubt" (aka "close enough is good enough") theory, and by assuring that all competitors adopt a reasonably similar Start Position (e.g. somewhere along the charge line).

However if my first 400 competitors understand that "Gun on table" means "flat", there's no way on God's Earth that #401 is going to stand his gun erect.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

I'll leave your latin "hell alone", even if I was ready to offer you some help with it while comfortably seated with a couple of daiquiris on the table...

Since the discussion is drifting, I'll post my considerations in this new thread.

[JerryDGeek]

This is precisely why I've repeatedly stated that the RO has a right to ensure consistency with the Start Position, and it seems that the only person who agrees with me is Gary Stevens, God bless him!

Agony!

As much as it pains me to do so, Vinny, I have to agree with you on this one.

The MD, RM, and stage designer don't have to make special effort to define "hands hanging naturally at sides." We all know that it means exactly what it says, and it says 'hanging'.

That means you don't have a gunfighter stance, your elbows aren't bent 'un-naturally', and your fingers aren't curled and quivering.

While working as RO, I have often cautioned shooters who are standing in a crouched, bowed-arms stance that they must have 'hands hanging naturally at sides.' Usually, they relax and assume a more erect stance, and let their hands drop.

Once in a while, a shooter responds by saying something like: "I AM relaxed, this is how I naturally stand!"

My response is that I haven't seen him standing like that when he is waiting for his turn at the line.

If the shooter refuses to relax his arms, I tell him to unload and show clear. He can return to the line when he is prepared to assume the specified starting position. And if he is unwilling to comply then, I WOULD carry out my threat except that nobody (in over a decade of experience) has yet failed to comply.

Anal? Oh, yeah.

But I'm really doing him a favor.

Experienced shooters don't often argue about this requirement. Usually, they realize that they are all tensed up and they aren't going to improve their scores or their times by standing like a statue.

In fact, most IPSC Gurus coach their students to stand relaxed at the start, to get the tension out of their shoulders by 'shaking it out'. That is, flapping their hands until they have relieved the tension out of their shoulders, arms and hands.

We almost invariably perform better when we aren't starting a stage with our muscles tensed. The draw time is decreased, the first hits are better, and the rest of the stage performance is improved.

Brian Enos has been consistent in emphasizing that the shooter must be RELAXED to do well, in his book "Practical Shooting: Beyond the fundementals". Browsing my copy, I find the following statements by just opening the book at random:

Section 2: The Tools of Shooting (To The gun) Pg. 52

I hold both hands very relaxed in my staring position, and while I do hold my strong hand in a "pre-fitted" form to the pistol grip, I do so with no tension.  Your hands and wrists must be relaxed to move quickly, also a "stiff" hand can't naturally conform to the pistol.

And in Section 3: Creative Shooting (More about focus types) page 69:

I may shoot Bill Drills ... My focus there is occasionally just on being relaxed ...

I might be seeing other things happening but my emphasis is on being relaxed and monitoring my ability to stay relaxed.

So while it may seem excessively controlling for a RO to insist that "hands relaxed" means exactly what it says, this insistance serves two purposes:

(1) it insures that every competitor starts the same way, in accordance to the written stage procedures, and

(2) it helps shooters to learn how to perform better by adhering to the lessons of The Master of IPSC Competition.

And BTW, the Range Officer doesn't have "... a right to ensure consistency... ".

It's a Duty.

[Vince Pinto]

Agony! As much as it pains me to do so, Vinny, I have to agree with you on this one.And BTW, the Range Officer doesn't have "... a right to ensure consistency... ". It's a Duty.

Well slap my ass and call me Susan! At least now I know why I just saw a pig flying past my window.

I thought it was due to all those tequila shots last night, but they're probably just responsible for the pink elephants ......

[Jim Norman]

Ah, but there is a difference.

Here we have a distinct instruction, "Arms hangiong naturally at sides" as opposed to simply standing someplace with holstered loaded gun.

It is certainly posibble and proper to tell a shooter that a runners crouch with his elbows bent so his hand is a fraction of an inch from his gun is not in compliance, just like standing in fron t of a chair is not seated.

No points awarded. Pigs are still grounded.

Next scenario

Jim Norman

[Rockclimbg]

Holy Cow! This is a lot of information. Thanks for all the great responses!

I'm just gearing up for my dry firing practice and I don't want to be practicing from an illegal stance all winter. Not trying to circumvent the rules or anything. That being said, I always kind of liked stages that make you start with your hands on a table or on a wall, etc because I feel that it leaves nothing to interpretation and assures that everyone is on the same level.

Thanks again for the replies.

Rockclimbg

[Gary Stevens]

Hey Vince, I just read your post about me. Thanks for using the word Bless, usually there is another word inserted in that space.

[Vince Pinto]

It is certainly posibble and proper to tell a shooter that a runners crouch with his elbows bent so his hand is a fraction of an inch from his gun is not in compliance, just like standing in fron t of a chair is not seated.

If I insist that, for me, "arms hanging naturally at the sides" means I adopt what might be described by some as a "gun fighter" stance (think Yosemite Sam), what gives you the authority to tell me that my stance is not "natural" or otherwise unacceptable?

Answer: You're the RO and you have a duty to ensure consistency.

As I said in another thread, people can "face uprange" by having most of their body pointed towards the targets, but with just their face facing uprange. Of course there's no way in the wide world that anyone will get away with such nonsense on my watch (been there, done that, which is why I raised the issue), and that's because I have a duty to ensure reasonable consistency.

[Jake Di Vita]

Devils Advocate Mode:

My arms and hands are always totally relaxed. "Arms relaxed at sides" says NOTHING about your shoulders. I can have my shoulders cocked any which way or direction as long as my arms are still hanging naturally at sides.

[Nik Habicht]

Answer: You're the RO and you have a duty to ensure consistency.

Actually I think you have a duty to enforce compliance with the start position as written. As long as the competitor complies with the WSB, it shouldn't matter if he finds a better/faster way of accomplishing things. Someone standing with the arms tensed and elbows flexed, isn't complying with the stipulation of "arms relaxed at sides".

Facing uprange is a vague descriptor of a start position. If that's how the stage description reads, I should be able to stand with shoulders/hips/feet perpendicular to the 180 and turn my head to be facing uprange. If you want to compell shoulders/hips/feet parallel to the 180, with the back of my body and head towards the targets, you need a better description of the start position in the written stage briefing.

When I wish to compell a certain start position, it's usually toes touching XXs and hands touching something else --- a doorknob, the ledge of a port, or another set of XXs.....

Vince --- you keep using the word consistency and applying it to ROs.

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

I see nothing here about an RO enforcing consistency. I do see something here:

The Range Master may modify a written stage briefing at any time for reasons of clarity, consistency or safety (see Section 2.3).

Therefore, I believe that as an RO, or even as a CRO, your job isn't consistency. That's left for the RM to decide --- you're certainly free to call him to discuss the situation.

[Vince Pinto]

Nik,

While I realise I'm banging my head against a brick wall on this topic, note that Rule 7.1.1 says "oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing". Now how does an RO ensure compliance if he isn't able to clarify the acceptable go/no go parameters? Remember we're essentially talking about how to deal with gamers.

Who decides whether a competitor is in compliance with "arms hanging naturally", or "facing uprange"? Who clarifies that "standing in the box" actually means "standing in the frame"? Who clarifies the extent of "fingers intertwined"? Who decides that a pistol with a 2" extended slide racker satifies the "laid flat" verbiage used in the WSB?

And somebody somewhere mentioned "Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner" from Rule 1.1.5, but since when is adopting the Start Position part of the challenge?

Moreover, if you want to argue that "freestyle" starts at LAMR, then why the hell do we have to stand in a box, or face a certain direction, or prepare our gun in a certain way? If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start?

The answer is that we require consistency with the Start Position, because the separation of the men from the boys is decided after the Start Signal.

[Dead Buff]

Moreover, if you want to argue that "freestyle" starts at LAMR, then why the hell do we have to stand in a box, or face a certain direction, or prepare our gun in a certain way? If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start?

The answer is that we require consistency with the Start Position, because the separation of the men from the boys is decided after the Start Signal.

That should settle it for all.

[Vince Pinto]

That should settle it for all.

You must be new here ......

[Dead Buff]

It that time of year where hope might have a chance.....

[Nik Habicht]

If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start?

The answer is that we require consistency with the Start Position, because the separation of the men from the boys is decided after the Start Signal.

Funny --- I've used stages where that was the prescribed start position.

We're arguing about two different things here: You appear to be coming at this from the "Every Competitor will assume the exact same start position, facing in the same direction" position. There's nothing wrong with that if it's specified that way in the written stage briefing.

What I'm maintaining is that it may be the Stage Designer's (with MD/RM approval) intent to allow the competitor some leeway in starting the stage. This leeway could allow for the differences between left and right handed shooters --- or it might allow for Production shooters to start at a different point in the Freefire zone than open/standard/revolver shooters.

There are some two string classifiers in the US that have shooter's choice of hand position --- either hands at sides or surrender --- as part of the start position.