Dalmas Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) I've only been in the sport for 18 months, and I feel that the equipment check at major matches is more a farse than serious business. Naive blue eyed me would like to play by the book but during the 8 level III and 1 level IV matches I've attended it's obvious that the book is more and more made of rubber, stretch it as far as you can. The person in the pic shot standard (damn good too) and he was on the squad ahead of us for 28 stages and my questions is, If the rules was enforced how could he get passed 28 equipment checks with a mag pouch like that? Edited December 9, 2004 by Dalmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Dalmas, I can not see or access the image.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 .. I feel that the equipment check at major matches is more a farse than serious business. That's quite a damning statement. Anyway, the image you posted is not distinct enough for me to comment on whether or not the front mag pouch complies with the diagram shown in Appendix F3. However if the subject competitor passed muster for 28 equipment checks, I must presume that 28 Range Officers were satisfied that he was in compliance. In any case, if you had an objection, why didn't you file a protest with the Range Master during the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Dalmas, I can see the pic, but it so fuzzy and lack too many details that it's almost impossible to even understand the angle at which the pic was taken, let alone determining the body-belt orientation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Without seeing the pic, I can only comment on own experience. At all matches I have attended the equipment checks where done thoroughly and accurately (and always while having fun ). To date I have never encountered a situation where at any point I felt me or anybody else was treated unfairly due to inadequate equipment checks and controls. But thats just here in Africa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A33435 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 It is always hard to tell from a picture. It seems that the magpouche touches the place of this persons first beltloop on his trousers. I can imagine that during or after shooting stage the beltposition could alter. At the moment this picture was taking the magpouche is more than likely to be to much in front but it could have been positioned at the right place when the competitor started the COF. Dalmas, if i see a situation like this i first ask the competitor if he thinks his equipment is ok. If he thinks its ok or in the case i can not communicate with this person i ask the RO on the stage he will be shooting to pay attention to the equipment. Greetings Adrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 That's quite a damning statement. Well it's the way I've feelt it, (this post might render me under the magifying glass next time I show up on a stage..). Dalmas talking to himself -"be careful, the toes you step on today might be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow".. At the EC the ROs actually looked at our dance in front of them and if you had no gun in the holster you had to get dressed up, but at most other matches the name has been called and the signature put on the sheet without any dance or even taking the jacket off. That projects a relaxt attitude about equipment checks and people push things further and further. I had no intentions at the match to file a protest, it's been since returning home and attending other matches that it has bothered me that the equipment check has been handled so inconsistantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 Without seeing the pic, I can only comment on own experience. At all matches I have attended the equipment checks where done thoroughly and accurately (and always while having fun ). To date I have never encountered a situation where at any point I felt me or anybody else was treated unfairly due to inadequate equipment checks and controls. But thats just here in Africa.... I'm a joking kinda person (not very well projected here) and the equipment check dance can be very funny but I've felt that sometime the persons that push the limit a bit far don't get "caught". I wish i hadn't posted this topic.. I'm not a bitching pigeon... can it be deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 At the EC the ROs actually looked at our dance in front of them and if you had no gun in the holster you had to get dressed up, <snip> Sounds to me that the officials at the EC2004 did their job splendidly. Dalmas talking to himself -"be careful, the toes you step on today might be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow".. I love your comment but, no, we won't delete this topic, because we love to see you squirm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I wish i hadn't posted this topic.. I'm not a bitching pigeon... can it be deleted. Don't wish that. How will you live with yourself during each match if you hadn't. If its wrong, it must be corrected. Now, since you say you are a joking person - prove it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 The way I see the photo is that the first mag pouch is completely in front of the pelvic bone that it's supposed to be behind... it's pretty much in the same spot my first mag is. I wouldn't call it bitching, Dalmas, I'd call it bringing up a genuine issue with rule enforcement. If a rule is being contravened, it needs to be addressed by the PTB (powers-that-be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 Now, since you say you are a joking person - prove it!!! Ok next time I show up for the equipment dance I'll do it like this... remember I shoot standard, and not revolver standard.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Ok next time I show up for the equipment dance I'll do it like this... remember I shoot standard, and not revolver standard.. You'll do much better if you also have a gun ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraut Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 ... is completely in front of the pelvic bone that it's supposed to be behind... Many IPSC (and IDPA) competitors seem to have defect deformed pelvis bones. Poor boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Dalmas, I'm sure I know who the shooter is... and yes, you are right. Don't get me startet on his fellow ".10 split" team mate... even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Dalmas. I hear you. The 29(!!!) equipment checks were (to say the least) not very effective. I've seen a guy with extended mags and grip tape on the slide pass the major equipment check for Production division. In any case, if you had an objection, why didn't you file a protest with the Range Master during the match? So Vince, what's next? I have to yell stop if a competitor breaks the 180 and the RO failed to see it? It's the duty of the competitor to comply with the rules and the duty of the RO's, guys at the equipment check and the RM to deal with the guys that do not comply. What pisses me off is that the picture was taken at the shoot-off. Little changes like that DO make a difference there. Plus that also makes it seem intentional. The intentional part pisses me off. Normally I would tell an unaware shooter that his equipment is not OK so he can change it before the RO sees it. But in this case, I might have gone to see the RO/RM etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 It's the duty of the competitor to comply with the rules and the duty of the RO's, guys at the equipment check and the RM to deal with the guys that do not comply. Thanks for that useful information, but what exactly is the point of someone complaining here about an alleged incident at a match which concluded 3 months ago? What pisses me off is that the picture was taken at the shoot-off. Little changes like that DO make a difference there. Plus that also makes it seem intentional. The intentional part pisses me off. Normally I would tell an unaware shooter that his equipment is not OK so he can change it before the RO sees it. But in this case, I might have gone to see the RO/RM etc. But apparently you didn't, and nor did any other of the 800 competitors, right? In any case, if 29 ROs did not find reason to ask the competitor to move his equipment during the match, then I must presume there wasn't a problem during the match, and that perhaps the magazine pouch was moved (inadvertently or otherwise) just prior to the Shoot Off. If that was the case, anybody aggrieved still had a right to lodge an appeal at the Shoot-Off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [...] what exactly is the point of someone complaining here about an alleged incident at a match which concluded 3 months ago? The equipment check was not effective. Kind of strange for a Level IV match. That's the point. In any case, if 29 ROs did not find reason to ask the competitor to move his equipment during the match, then I must presume there wasn't a problem during the match, and that perhaps the magazine pouch was moved (inadvertently or otherwise) just prior to the Shoot Off.If that was the case, anybody aggrieved still had a right to lodge an appeal at the Shoot-Off. I know I have the right to lodge an appeal. That's not the point. Call me silly, but I'd rather mind my own shooting/match/game than checking other competitors equipment. Plus, I don't shoot Standard and I only got to see 50% of the shooters during the match (because of the morning/afternoon-program). All I can do is conclude that if someone enters the Shoot-off like that (and from the things I've seen at the equipment check), the whole equipment check there was a joke. And again, at a Level IV? In any case, if 29 ROs did not find reason to ask the competitor to move his equipment during the match, then I must presume there wasn't a problem during the match The guy with the grip tape on the slide and the extended Beretta 92 mags went through the big dedicated official equipment check like that. And he shot the 28 stages after that with the same equipment. There was a check at every stage. My presumption is that the RO's didn't see/know, and the competitors didn't bother. Anyways, it's not a rant in your direction Vince. All I'm saying is that I understand Mats. You can have the best rules in the world. But as long as they're just on paper and they're not followed by some, the rule only exists to the obedient nice guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Anyways, it's not a rant in your direction Vince. I understand, but Dalmas (and now you) have dismissed the equipment check at the subject Level IV competition as being ineffective, and that's a very serious charge, and I simply cannot take such charges lightly, especially when they appear in the public arena. I've therefore invited the Range Master and Assistant Range Master to consider the allegations, and to let me have their views on the matter. However I also note that at least one of the people who officiated as a CRO at the subject match is a regular BE Forum contributor, and I hope he's willing to comment on your allegations. Yoda, where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Vince, maybe you see them as such, but I don't know that these guys are throwing out "allegations" and "serious charges". These are shooters giving feedback on something they noticed. Lets give them a listen. We might pick up on something that might need further attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Yoda, where are you? Vince, where would you think I was, hmmm ??? After the AustralAsian Championships 18 hour travel back home and straight back to the office where they collected some work for me to do while I was enjoying the Indonesian sun and the company of so many friends (not to mention the Bintang Happy Hour and the Dji Sam Soe promotion girls ) Allow me to offer my PERSONAL view on this topic in general and the EC2004 in particular. Quite often the equipment check on level III matches (if any!!) is done without even looking at the competitor. I've seen matches where the equipment sheet actually functioned as a registration paper that the competitor attended the CoF - nothing more. Other level III matches take things more seriously and request the CRO to check whether the equipment is still on the same spot as when they started - which is the primary function of the equipment sheet. I've seen shooters enter my stage whose equipment diagram was still blanco, nevertheless they allready passed a number of stages which were countersigned by the ( C )RO. It also depends heavily on the officials working that match. I've also seen officials who insisted on checking the serial# of the gun from each and every competitor who was to shoot on their stage. Hell, I've even seen a level IV match WITHOUT equipment check or equipment sheets Could have been an Asian thing, but personally I don't like it that way. IMO on all level III and higher matches each competitor must have an equipment sheet, properly filled out by the competitor and checked seriously by the RO/CRO. Special attention should be given when starting in the morning and resuming shooting after lunch break as this is where competitors probably have removed their gear and put it back on after lunch. For level IV and V matches an official equipment check should be mandatory, run by officials who are up to date with the current Production List and eventual Rules Interpretations. Back to EC2004 - shortly before the EC2004 the first set of Rules Interpretations came into effect. Quite a few competitors were not aware of those interpretations and had their equipment not in specs with the new regulations. At the Equipment Check all competitors had to go through after registration local officials did not pay enough attention to certain details (including the new regulations). This was found out only after the competitors started. Apparently it was not fair to move all Production shooters who had grip tape on other locations than the grip to Open Division because the organization failed with the initial check. Therefore all competitors were kindly requested to remove the grip tape from slide/frame before starting with the next stage. As with non-compliant magazines - I have not noticed magazines with +1-2 basepads with Production shooters. Then the last thing about holster and mag pouch positions. We have so many variations in human build that it is quite difficult to EXACTLY measure where the forward point of the hipbone is without poking into everybodies body. Only when it looks like the position is way up front I will kindly ask the individual competitor where he thinks his most forward point is. More often than not he realizes his mistake and takes corrective measures. Bottomline - yes, at the EC2004 mistakes have been made and where possible have been corrected in a way not to harras the competitors unnecessarily. I did not attend the shoot-off so I cannot comment on that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Vince, Flex is right. These are not allegations. Nor are they serious charges. It is just a fact that some (just a few) competitors didn't follow the rules. How seriously you take that is up to you. I personally don't care that much. Feel free to involve the RM and ARM, but all you can do is ask them why the rules were not enforced. If they know the answer to that question, then you will have the solution to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 Flex is right on the money! Thx Spook for the support and Yoda for the excellent description of how it can be. (just as i tried to describe it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 These are shooters giving feedback on something they noticed. Lets give them a listen. I do listen, and I always appreciate constructive feedback on how we might have done things better, but this thread starts out solely as a damning criticism, and I know this because the opening (and sweeping) comment says "the equipment check at major matches is more a farse than serious business". If it's not apparent after all these years, I just don't take kindly to people nit-picking the efforts of others who step up to the plate and put their hearts and souls into creating something of value, such as a huge and highly successful match like the EC2004. If there was a summary of the highlights of the match, with suggestions for improvements, that would be another thing entirely, but focusing solely on what one or two people thought is a shortcoming is nit-picking. And to suggest that 1 (or a handful) of 800 competitors managed to flaunt the rules despite 28 (29?) equipment checks because range officials didn't do their job properly, is incredibly harsh. This reminds me of the "Why did the chicken cross the road" joke, where Colonel Sanders says "I missed one??". In any case, and despite my support for them, there is no requirement to have an equipment sheet and/or a formal equipment checking regime at any level match and I, for one, am quite capable of checking competitor's compliance with the rules, and his declared division, without an equipment sheet. However I'm human so, if I happen to miss something and if you don't want to make a big fuss about it, you can bring the matter to my attention discreetly, and I will deal with the matter equally discreetly at the match, which is the only time I can deal with the matter - there's absolutely nothing I can do about it 3 months later. Yoda makes a valid point about the (then) 2 week old rule interpretations, and I think the way the matter was handled at the EC2004 as a "temporary amnesty" was eminently reasonable. If a competitor was found not to be strictly in compliance with the new interpretations concerning (a relatively minor issue such as) grip tape, he was nicely asked to comply, and I have no doubt that competitors appreciated such an understanding attitude, instead of Range Officers taking a hard line. However my bottom line remains unchanged. If you see something at a match which is not 100% kosher, speak to a range official at the match. They won't bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Feel free to involve the RM and ARM ARM ???? Is Vince in such deep doo-doo to the point where Harm Rabb is going to defend him? I truly believe he'd asked for Col. McKenzie assistance instead ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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