lcs Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? The WSB does not state the "Order" of the strings. It specifies the start position, but not the string order. Many folks assume String 1 means order, but it is just a "name" for the purpose of recording score and time. Even though we score targets after both strings have been shot, we record the time separately and the total required hits per target are the same. Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. In addition, there is no advantage if someone shoots String 2 first or second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 So that thing in 6.1.1 that doesn't include "Must" isn't an actual requirement? 'cause I don't think you can have it both ways..... I believe that 6.1.1 is there to to point out that you do not need to score each string of fire before starting the next string. In the case of a malfuction that requires extensive repair the string must be scored to allow the match to flow, as you point out it would be silly to have the stage sit idle for 20 minutes or 2 hours, or a day to allow a person to repair their firearm then shoot their remaining strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Then the shooter asks how they should shoot the second string without incurring additional penalties. You can't answer this (coaching). For the second string does he shoot “at” T1 but intentionally miss so he does not rack up Extra Hit penalties? (He 'could' do this) Does he engage T1 and T3 instead? (Do you mean T2 and T3? if so not without penalty.) Does he get a failure to shoot at penalty for T2 if he does not shoot at it during the second string? Yes If the shooter chooses to not shoot the second string, how is that to be scored? Scored as shot including all applicable penalties (i.e. add string 1 time x.xx and string 2 time 0.00, 12 misses, 2 FTE). Since it could be infered that you interfered by recommending the unload and show clear - reshoot (up to RM though). Edited to add not without penalty and to correct score. Edited January 15, 2014 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? The WSB does not state the "Order" of the strings. It specifies the start position, but not the string order. Many folks assume String 1 means order, but it is just a "name" for the purpose of recording score and time. Even though we score targets after both strings have been shot, we record the time separately and the total required hits per target are the same. Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. In addition, there is no advantage if someone shoots String 2 first or second. If he shot string 2 first, then he forgot to reload and engage T3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? I think you meant on String 2, shoot T2 and T3, but I'm starting to lean this way. I've heard it said many times that you score extra shots at the line, and extra hits at the target. If that is the case, and he corrects his mistake on the 2nd string, I could see the call for 2 procedurals for failure to follow the WSB and no other penalties. I'm not sure this is the right call, but I could make an argument for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? I think you meant on String 2, shoot T2 and T3, but I'm starting to lean this way. I've heard it said many times that you score extra shots at the line, and extra hits at the target. If that is the case, and he corrects his mistake on the 2nd string, I could see the call for 2 procedurals for failure to follow the WSB and no other penalties. I'm not sure this is the right call, but I could make an argument for it. Extra shots at the line, extra hits on target is correct. I would have to agree with the 2 procedurals (since per shot is not specified on the Stage Description and it is not a significant advantage shooting it this way). Edited January 15, 2014 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 The WSB does not state the "Order" of the strings. It specifies the start position, but not the string order. Many folks assume String 1 means order, but it is just a "name" for the purpose of recording score and time. Even though we score targets after both strings have been shot, we record the time separately and the total required hits per target are the same. Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. In addition, there is no advantage if someone shoots String 2 first or second. Very interesting concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. CM 13-04 String 1: On signal, turn and engage ... String 2: On signal, turn and engage .... The enumeration seems to specify an order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 OK. The shooter needs two hours to repair his gun -- or a twenty minute walk to the parking lot to get a spare....... So the stage just sits there, waiting for his return, right? Then why do we need the language about "after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director." That suggests -- for a multiday match where a gun fails for a competitor on day 1, that he could return to complete the stage on day 4 -- and I don't think it'll be sitting idle in the meantime...... Maybe we mean different things when using the word "score." Certainly the hits and any other pertinent information should be recorded and the stage cleared for the match to proceed. But actual "scoring" of the stage still requires the rest of the strings to be done. After the 1st string, for example, you generally can't positively say "extra hit" or "mike" on a target. The "scoring" aspect of that type of circumstance is subject to what happens on the remaining strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? The WSB does not state the "Order" of the strings. It specifies the start position, but not the string order. Many folks assume String 1 means order, but it is just a "name" for the purpose of recording score and time. Even though we score targets after both strings have been shot, we record the time separately and the total required hits per target are the same. Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. In addition, there is no advantage if someone shoots String 2 first or second. If he shot string 2 first, then he forgot to reload and engage T3. I'm not saying he did shoot String 2 first. In his case, he screwed the pooch no matter what. Had he reloaded and shot T3--No harm, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. CM 13-04 String 1: On signal, turn and engage ... String 2: On signal, turn and engage .... The enumeration seems to specify an order. and he says If it said String 2: On signal, turn and engage.... String 1: On signal, turn and engage.... Would you still say the enumeration seems to specify an order.... Does it change anything? scoring? give a competitor any advantage shooting either string first or second? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? Nope -- he already engaged T1 -- so he winds up with 6 extra hits that way at a minimum, and still has six misses on T2. If he engages T2 and T3 on the second string, I'd assess 12 procedurals, one per shot fired at T1 and T2...... Any way it goes, it's a zero -- it's almost irrelevant how you get there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So that thing in 6.1.1 that doesn't include "Must" isn't an actual requirement? 'cause I don't think you can have it both ways..... I believe that 6.1.1 is there to to point out that you do not need to score each string of fire before starting the next string. In the case of a malfuction that requires extensive repair the string must be scored to allow the match to flow, as you point out it would be silly to have the stage sit idle for 20 minutes or 2 hours, or a day to allow a person to repair their firearm then shoot their remaining strings. Yup -- 'cause once upon a time we operated under an IPSC rule that required scoring after each string, so the shooter couldn't fix an earlier error, and sneak one past an inexperienced RO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? I think you meant on String 2, shoot T2 and T3, but I'm starting to lean this way. I've heard it said many times that you score extra shots at the line, and extra hits at the target. If that is the case, and he corrects his mistake on the 2nd string, I could see the call for 2 procedurals for failure to follow the WSB and no other penalties. I'm not sure this is the right call, but I could make an argument for it. Extra shots at the line, extra hits on target is correct. I would have to agree with the 2 procedurals (since per shot is not specified on the Stage Description and it is not a significant advantage shooting it this way). I'd argue it's a significant advantage on the turn to the first target, for at least the first shot; and it's another significant advantage to have a shorter transition on the other string. You can set up totally differently..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 OK. The shooter needs two hours to repair his gun -- or a twenty minute walk to the parking lot to get a spare....... So the stage just sits there, waiting for his return, right? Then why do we need the language about "after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director." That suggests -- for a multiday match where a gun fails for a competitor on day 1, that he could return to complete the stage on day 4 -- and I don't think it'll be sitting idle in the meantime...... Maybe we mean different things when using the word "score." Certainly the hits and any other pertinent information should be recorded and the stage cleared for the match to proceed. But actual "scoring" of the stage still requires the rest of the strings to be done. After the 1st string, for example, you generally can't positively say "extra hit" or "mike" on a target. The "scoring" aspect of that type of circumstance is subject to what happens on the remaining strings. Actually, if I know which string was shot, I sure can...... ....at least on this classifier...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Actually, if I know which string was shot, I sure can...... ....at least on this classifier...... Assume its string 1, and there are only 5 hits on T2. You would "score" a Mike, I presume. Then the shooter gets the gun fixed, comes back for string 2, engages T1 with 6 rounds only, performs a mandatory reload, and engages T3 with six rounds only, and then turns to T2 and shoots an A. Whatever "scoring" was done after the first string would then need revision, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Actually, if I know which string was shot, I sure can...... ....at least on this classifier...... Assume its string 1, and there are only 5 hits on T2. You would "score" a Mike, I presume. Then the shooter gets the gun fixed, comes back for string 2, engages T1 with 6 rounds only, performs a mandatory reload, and engages T3 with six rounds only, and then turns to T2 and shoots an A. Whatever "scoring" was done after the first string would then need revision, it seems. Nope. String 1 was scored when the gun broke -- with a time, five hits and a miss = 6 hits accounted for. String 2 gets scored with whatever hits are on T1 & T3, one extra shot, and one extra hit..... It's not hard...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Nope. String 1 was scored when the gun broke -- with a time, five hits and a miss = 6 hits accounted for. String 2 gets scored with whatever hits are on T1 & T3, one extra shot, and one extra hit..... It's not hard...... Turns out you are correct for a broken gun scenario, but not for any reason you have been able to articulate so far. I forgot part of Rule 5.7.4. When a gun malfunctions in an early string of a multi-string COF, the "course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties." That's the only provision that allows between-string scoring in a multi-string COF when the COF does not expressly allow scoring between strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Extra shots at the line, extra hits on target is correct. I would have to agree with the 2 procedurals (since per shot is not specified on the Stage Description and it is not a significant advantage shooting it this way). I'd argue it's a significant advantage on the turn to the first target, for at least the first shot; and it's another significant advantage to have a shorter transition on the other string. You can set up totally differently..... I still think 2 procedurals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. CM 13-04 String 1: On signal, turn and engage ... String 2: On signal, turn and engage .... The enumeration seems to specify an order. and he says If it said String 2: On signal, turn and engage.... String 1: On signal, turn and engage.... Would you still say the enumeration seems to specify an order.... Does it change anything? scoring? give a competitor any advantage shooting either string first or second? Actually, yes the numbers specify an order, because the strings are still differentiated by number. The WSB does not specify that the competitor can shoot the course in any order he desires, therefore, it must be shot in the order the strings are numbered. Otherwise, why would other courses of fire with multiple strings specifically say you can do it in whatever order the competitor desires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Nope. String 1 was scored when the gun broke -- with a time, five hits and a miss = 6 hits accounted for. String 2 gets scored with whatever hits are on T1 & T3, one extra shot, and one extra hit..... It's not hard...... Turns out you are correct for a broken gun scenario, but not for any reason you have been able to articulate so far. I forgot part of Rule 5.7.4. When a gun malfunctions in an early string of a multi-string COF, the "course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties." That's the only provision that allows between-string scoring in a multi-string COF when the COF does not expressly allow scoring between strings. I don't know about that about, considering that Chapter 6 does not deal with scoring, and considering that 6.1.1 is the first of a list of term definitions...... I'm not seeing it as a hard requirement (must, will, shall) since it's written as a definition of string..... If that language were in Chapter 9, I might see it differently, but it's in Chapter 6 Match Structure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. CM 13-04 String 1: On signal, turn and engage ... String 2: On signal, turn and engage .... The enumeration seems to specify an order. and he says If it said String 2: On signal, turn and engage.... String 1: On signal, turn and engage.... Would you still say the enumeration seems to specify an order.... Does it change anything? scoring? give a competitor any advantage shooting either string first or second? Actually, yes the numbers specify an order, because the strings are still differentiated by number. The WSB does not specify that the competitor can shoot the course in any order he desires, therefore, it must be shot in the order the strings are numbered. Otherwise, why would other courses of fire with multiple strings specifically say you can do it in whatever order the competitor desires? Moderator: Did not mean to Hijack thread. This is a different question, but does apply because he could have shot this way also. Split it out to another topic if you want. WSB says: "START POSITION:Standing in Area A, facing uprange, fingers touching head above ears. Gun loaded and holstered " Now we go to Stage Procedure. My points are (1). IF you START on STRING 1 or STRING 2, there is no advantage/disadvantage to any competitor. (2)There is no skewing of the classifier results. So, starting on string 1 or 2 is moot. The most you could argue is 1 procedural for not following WSB; however, NROI did not agree with a procedural or reshoot when the same thing happend on another classifier worded the same way. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22 shooter Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) String 2, shoot T1 and T3. No misses,no extra shots, no extra hits. 2 procedurals for shooting each string out of order? I think you meant on String 2, shoot T2 and T3, but I'm starting to lean this way. I've heard it said many times that you score extra shots at the line, and extra hits at the target. If that is the case, and he corrects his mistake on the 2nd string, I could see the call for 2 procedurals for failure to follow the WSB and no other penalties. I'm not sure this is the right call, but I could make an argument for it. Yes, he already shot T1 (which was the the wrong target, supposed to be T2) on string 1. One procedural. Then he should have shot T2 and T3 on string two. No misses, no extra shots, no extra hits. Another procedural for for shooting string two out of order. Edited January 16, 2014 by 22 shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Show me any wording in the WSB addressing the order of strings. CM 13-04 String 1: On signal, turn and engage ... String 2: On signal, turn and engage .... The enumeration seems to specify an order. and he says If it said String 2: On signal, turn and engage.... String 1: On signal, turn and engage.... Would you still say the enumeration seems to specify an order.... Does it change anything? scoring? give a competitor any advantage shooting either string first or second? Actually, yes the numbers specify an order, because the strings are still differentiated by number. The WSB does not specify that the competitor can shoot the course in any order he desires, therefore, it must be shot in the order the strings are numbered. Otherwise, why would other courses of fire with multiple strings specifically say you can do it in whatever order the competitor desires? Moderator: Did not mean to Hijack thread. This is a different question, but does apply because he could have shot this way also. Split it out to another topic if you want. WSB says: "START POSITION:Standing in Area A, facing uprange, fingers touching head above ears. Gun loaded and holstered " Now we go to Stage Procedure. My points are (1). IF you START on STRING 1 or STRING 2, there is no advantage/disadvantage to any competitor. (2)There is no skewing of the classifier results. So, starting on string 1 or 2 is moot. The most you could argue is 1 procedural for not following WSB; however, NROI did not agree with a procedural or reshoot when the same thing happend on another classifier worded the same way. . Wrong. There's no verbiage which says the competitor is allowed to shoot either string in the order of their choosing. For example, 99-23 and 99-24 (Front Sight and Front Sight 2) specify that the shooter has a choice of where his hands are, but must face uprange for the first string and downrange for the second. If the WSB does not specifically state that the string order is at the competitor's discretion, it's shot as a reasonable person would read the WSB--String 1 then string 2. To put this another way--for the classifiers which specify shooting three strings with three different grips (freestyle, strong hand, weak hand) and specifying which string has which grip, you would give a procedural to a competitor for using the wrong grip on each string, would you not? 1.2.2.2 “Classifiers” – Courses of fire published by USPSA, which are available to competitors seeking a National classification. Classifiers must be set-up in accordance with these rules and be conducted strictly in accordance with the notes and diagrams accompanying them. Results must be submitted to the publishing entity in the format required (with the applicable fees, if any), in order to be recognized. Emphasis mine. Edited January 16, 2014 by frag316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austex Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Nope. String 1 was scored when the gun broke -- with a time, five hits and a miss = 6 hits accounted for. String 2 gets scored with whatever hits are on T1 & T3, one extra shot, and one extra hit..... It's not hard...... Turns out you are correct for a broken gun scenario, but not for any reason you have been able to articulate so far. I forgot part of Rule 5.7.4. When a gun malfunctions in an early string of a multi-string COF, the "course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties." That's the only provision that allows between-string scoring in a multi-string COF when the COF does not expressly allow scoring between strings. I don't know about that about, considering that Chapter 6 does not deal with scoring, and considering that 6.1.1 is the first of a list of term definitions...... I'm not seeing it as a hard requirement (must, will, shall) since it's written as a definition of string..... If that language were in Chapter 9, I might see it differently, but it's in Chapter 6 Match Structure..... So because it’s not chapter 9, you can completely ignore it? If 6.1.1 were intended just to define the term “string,” then the first sentence is all that would be required: “String - A separately timed component of a Standard Exercise.” But 6.1.1 doesn’t just define what a string is, it set forth some requirements for handling a string. Sections 6.1.3 to 6.1.6 similarly do more than just “define” the terms “match,” “tournament,” “league,” and “shoot-off”—those sections add requirements for those items, too. And Section 6.1 is not just a “definitions” section – it’s also a “general principles” section. Your view ignores the general principles set forth for a string in 6.1.1. Section 6.1.1 states that “cores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded and the targets taped between strings.” If you are free to ignore that provision, it might as well not even be there. An interpretation of a regulatory document, like the USPSA rulebook, is rarely correct if it reads a provision out completely. Your view also could lead to inequitable results. For a shooter, scoring between strings undoubtedly is less advantageous than scoring at the end of the COF. Two shooters who execute the stage exactly the same could wind up with different scores, if one is scored between strings and the other at the end of the COF. Extra shot and miss penalties come immediately to mind as leading to different scores depending on the scoring procedure. An interpretation of the rulebook that has a significant risk of inequitable results hardly seems correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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