.38 Special Major?

[Grump]

Working on some light target loads with a cast bullet I have available and noticed that if I go into +P loadings with Power Pistol, I can get a 165 Power Factor. On paper at least. Subject to confirmation and all that.

Tried a quick search here on the forum and didn't find anything.

Anyone have experiences or thoughts on this???

Thanks!

[ZackJones]

What weight bullet are you considering? A 160g Bayou bullet would have to be running 1031 FPS to make 165 PF and that doesn't leave you any cushion. While it may be possible I don't think it's something I would enjoy shooting.

EDIT: Corrected typo.

Edited January 9, 2014 by ZackJones

[JFlowers]

The first year or two I shot revolver, I ran .38 Special Major using 180gr LaserCast. Also loaded a lot of 200gr RN i got from a local caster. In my 6in N-Frame they were tame loads.

[warpspeed]

Isn't that what 357 mag is for ?

I'm not so sure I'd want to run major in a 38 special pistol.

[gm iprod]

I have to agree with warspeed. But having said that, I have run 125gr Zero JHP at 1600fps in my 686 using Federal 38+P cases. The load was using H110 and Small Rifle Primers. Essentially we worked out what the difference in case capacity was between the max loads of H110 in a 357Max and 357Magnum cases using the same 125gr projectile and where they essentially filled the case to. Then reduced to the amount we could get into the Special case and fill to the same % of case fill and seated the bullet. Initial testing was conducted in a single shot H&R rifle and then when proved safe (no primer flow, no set back and no nasty expansion of the case) we launched it out of the 686. Worked fine. Similar muzzle blast to the max loaded H110 charge in 357Magnum but obviously with the appropriate reduction in velocity and recoil.

The only advantage that it would be real world useful for is if you were needing to speed up the reload by a nanosecond or 4.

Most data for 38+P is held to 20,000psi so that the loads are safe in any 38Special small frame revolver of any age. I believe, with care, you can increase the load over what is in the books, in good quality cases, in a good quality firearm, to Major power factor quite easily. Use the slower end of the powder range like Power Pistol, Long Shot, H110, W296,540, 571, HS6, HS7, VV3N37, N340, WSF and a few of similar burn-rate and you will find loads that go quite quick, safe pressure in a modern 38Special or 357Magnum Handguns. How useful that will be is debateable, as there is always the 357 Magnum that will fit in the same handgun and go way faster.

The reason we did it was because we had lots (5 Gallon Drum) of 38Special cases, some spare time and were way over thinking this. Plus it was fun. The H&R was great on Goats out to 75Metres with that load.

[JFlowers]

Warp,

Typically its not a .38 Special pistol (would not run my .38 Special Major loads in my K Frame Model 10), but a 357 Maj pistol using 38 Special brass. Cheaper, more plentiful, and capable of handling the load brass. I have heard but never seen, that there is an international revolver shooter who was running 38 Short Colt Major. Never was really brave enough to experiment with that.

[Pseudonym]

Sascha Back from Germany is the shooter JFlowers is speaking of shooting .38 major in IPSC revolver. I can't post a link to the page but if you search in the revolver forum here on BE "686 shooting major" there should be a lot of information there by several people including Sascha/ Cooper 999.

[Grump]

Thanks for the insights.

Here's where I'm at. The bullet is supposed to be 145 gr, I think. My alloy drops them at about 143. It's a SWC and has proven accurate (2 inches at 25 yards) in .357--I think that was a Power Pistol load.

My history is 125-gr bullets in a .357, buy factory to get the brass and then reload with W-W 296. Not only are those loud, they kick a lot. 19.5 to 20.5 was the charge, used a variety of JHPs. The whitish-yellow fireball from a 4-inch Smith (what I started with) is smaller than a volleyball but way bigger than a softball. A 6-inch barrel made little difference on the flash-a-rama.

Tried Unique and could just make major with it. Smaller charge weight kicked a little less.

Tried WAP when it was new, no published data but it spiked pressure well short of major.

Later tried Power Pistol and it's a lot less flashy than 296, more orange than white like 296 is so the flash is less trouble even if close to the same size, and I don't remember if I went all the way up to major with them. Then I almost quit shooting the revolver...been a few years...

With 125-gr bullets, the lighter charge weight of Power Pistol, Unique or Herco all kick a bit less at the same velocity. I think I did some math once and the total mass of what leaves the muzzle with 296 and 125-gr was almost identical to using a 158-gr bullet and one of the other NON-296/NON-LongShot etc. powders. Don't quote me on Longshot, I've never used it and don't remember for sure whether that is one that uses LOTS of powder like 296.

I had seen something a few months ago about someone using the Long Colt or Short Colt or something in a .357 with a new cylinder. Even if I was into spending money on parts like that, it seems just a touch too far, back into the 9mm Major problems and the ancient affliction of "Super Face" about the time ramped barrels became the way to go...

And it looks like using Power Pistol to go major in .38 Special really works only with a 6-inch.

When I first started loading .357, I was intending to use the Speer 146-gr JSWCHP for hunting--like the 168 in .30-06, it could go just enough faster than the traditional slightly heavier weights, and had enough better of a BC than the high-speed lightweights, that as you went downrange it had a slight edge over everything else in either energy or a bit less wind drift or a bit less trajectory drop. Interestingly enough, my 296 loads with that bullet had noticeably less flash than the 125-gr loads did. A full charge of Unique had even less flash, almost none and red to dull red.

Anyway, it's looking like the 140-145-gr bullet weight range might also give the best combination of speed and energy.in .38 Special, too.

[GOF]

As has been noted, if you're shooting these from a .357 chambered gun you can run 160 grain bullets at Major from .38 SPL cases with ease. They are not going to 'kick' like .38 SPL, but they will produce less recoil than a standard 158 grain .357.

Shooting a 160 grain bullet Major load in a .38 SPL chambered gun is a good way to accelerate wear on the gun, and possibly 'jug' a chamber. The .38 K-frames are not built to handle a steady diet of loads at that pressure level, and it is not a good idea.

But, works fine in a .357 chambered gun.

[JFlowers]

Grump,

I never found a load with mid-weight bullets that made Major and was comfortable; thats why I ended up with the 180gr bullets. For me, it just seemed to work best. Of course you may find something else works for you. Plus with 180gr bullets, I was basically running the same load as the Limited guys which added to the mental comfort factor with the load.

Of course I was using a 6in N-Frame 6 shot .357 so I had plenty of gun to manage any recoil.

[warpspeed]

Warp,

Typically its not a .38 Special pistol (would not run my .38 Special Major loads in my K Frame Model 10), but a 357 Maj pistol using 38 Special brass. Cheaper, more plentiful, and capable of handling the load brass. I have heard but never seen, that there is an international revolver shooter who was running 38 Short Colt Major. Never was really brave enough to experiment with that.

That makes perfect sense.

[anachronism]

If you look into 38-44 loads, you'll find a few more ideas for powders. 38-44 was of course, developed prior to the 357 magnum, as an attempt to improve the 38 Spls effectiveness using std 38 Spl cases, and heavy doses of powder.

[Shadowrider]

For a point of reference I've recently worked up a .38 Short Colt load using e3 and Bayou 160s. I started very low and worked up past where I wanted to go loading very carefully and checking the chrono readings across the load range. I got to 146PF when I just started to get some slight primer flattening. The point of reference in all of this is that e3 is purported to be an extremely fast powder with a burn rate right with Red Dot.

Shooting .38 Special brass in a .357 magnum chamber it would seem to be pretty easy to get to 165PF as long as you don't go too light on the bullet weight. I've never done it, but I would think that Unique, AA#5, WSF, Universal, and those in that range and maybe a slight bit slower would be suitable powders.

[9146gt]

If you look into 38-44 loads, you'll find a few more ideas for powders. 38-44 was of course, developed prior to the 357 magnum, as an attempt to improve the 38 Spls effectiveness using std 38 Spl cases, and heavy doses of powder.

I think you mean .38 special high speed loads from the 1930>1940's. 38-44 is another caliber and what Smith&Wesson called a large N frame (used for .44) but was chambered for .38 Special.

Tom

[Grump]

If you look into 38-44 loads, you'll find a few more ideas for powders. 38-44 was of course, developed prior to the 357 magnum, as an attempt to improve the 38 Spls effectiveness using std 38 Spl cases, and heavy doses of powder.

I think you mean .38 special high speed loads from the 1930>1940's. 38-44 is another caliber and what Smith&Wesson called a large N frame (used for .44) but was chambered for .38 Special.

Tom

Actually I think it tended to be both in the common language, unless you are talking about that necked-down one...which seemed to work a little bit better with the chamber cut square in front and putting a plastic sleeve over the bottlenecks. Kinda like an outside sabot for the case... I remember hearing some old timers calling the N-frame .38 Special *guns* .38-44s, and it may have even made it into print a few times. More often, it was the loads called that.

I could take a look in Sharpe's book for .38-44 loads, but many of the powders listed there are no longer produced, and other powders I'm interested in didn't exist then.

[9146gt]

If you look into 38-44 loads, you'll find a few more ideas for powders. 38-44 was of course, developed prior to the 357 magnum, as an attempt to improve the 38 Spls effectiveness using std 38 Spl cases, and heavy doses of powder.

I think you mean .38 special high speed loads from the 1930>1940's. 38-44 is another caliber and what Smith&Wesson called a large N frame (used for .44) but was chambered for .38 Special.

Tom

Actually I think it tended to be both in the common language, unless you are talking about that necked-down one...which seemed to work a little bit better with the chamber cut square in front and putting a plastic sleeve over the bottlenecks. Kinda like an outside sabot for the case... I remember hearing some old timers calling the N-frame .38 Special *guns* .38-44s, and it may have even made it into print a few times. More often, it was the loads called that.

I could take a look in Sharpe's book for .38-44 loads, but many of the powders listed there are no longer produced, and other powders I'm interested in didn't exist then.

Sharpe's book has very interesting loads, especially when looking at bullet weights and FPS.

Tom

[anachronism]

38-44 is loaded in 38 Spl cases, and predated the 357 magnum. Some were marked 38-44 back in the thirties, but nothing recent. The 44 mag necked to .357 is the 357-44 Bain & Davis. There was also a 357-44 Bobcat, which it totally different. Also not to be confused with 38-40 Winchester.

Edited January 12, 2014 by anachronism

[9146gt]

A few years ago there was an attempt to get Starline to make 38-44 brass but it did not work out after pricing the new tooling required.

Tom

[Grump]

Tom:

How was/is .38-44 brass different from modern .38 Special +P brass?

Mind you, I'm almost certain that at least *some* makes of that brass differ from "standard" only in the headstamp.

But I'll do some water capacity measurements on a few different makes if someone here REALLY wants info on stuff made after about 1985 to present...

BTW, the 6-inch S&W I would be shooting .38 Special Major in (maybe) has a barrel about 75 fps faster than a slightly older N-Frame I sold off a few years ago. Worked up some loads in the big one that actually showed "pressure signs" in the other one!

[9146gt]

Tom:

How was/is .38-44 brass different from modern .38 Special +P brass?

Mind you, I'm almost certain that at least *some* makes of that brass differ from "standard" only in the headstamp.

But I'll do some water capacity measurements on a few different makes if someone here REALLY wants info on stuff made after about 1985 to present...

BTW, the 6-inch S&W I would be shooting .38 Special Major in (maybe) has a barrel about 75 fps faster than a slightly older N-Frame I sold off a few years ago. Worked up some loads in the big one that actually showed "pressure signs" in the other one!

I did not find the info on the 38-44 case (from the Smith forum) but i did find this link.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/84157-calling-all-38-44-hs-ammo-collectors-fans.html

Tom

[anachronism]

38 Spl, 38 Spl +P, and 38-44 all used the same brass, only the headstamps were different.

[pme166]

The 38/44 S&W Special, 38/44 High Speed or the .38-44 Special were all the same round. It was developed in 1930 and introduced along with the 38/44 Heavy duty in April of 1930. These were big 5" N frames and the stated ballistics was about 1125 FPS with a 158 grn Jacketed or LRN.

In the shot above, both are 38/44 Heavy Duties but the bottom one is a 2nd week production April 1930 gun. The other is a late 1930's target conversion mimicking a McGivern Model.

They came in these three barrel lengths pre-war and are a lot of fun to shoot. There was also 6.5" target sighted guns called the 38/44 Outdoorsman shown below. The same ammo would do about 1150 FPS out of an Outdoorsman.

This is example of the head stamp:

If you want to duplicate the ballistics and are shooting a 38/44 then you can get there with about 7 grns of SR4756 with a 158 grn LSWC, 6 grns of Unique with the same bullet or 11.5 grns of 2400. Note these are for 38/44's or 357 magnums only.

Edited January 18, 2014 by pme166

[anachronism]

Absolutely beautiful!

[Grump]

6.7 gr from a 6-inch brought 1157 fps for a PF of 165.4. Temp about 60°F.

Recoil's not so bad, but that one has an older dot sight on it.

Next is accuracy test at 50 yards and a few more at 6.8 gr to see how much of a cushion that adds. Prediction is another 15 fps, that would make the PF a nice and gamey 166.59.