skeeter Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 at our 3 gun match today a shooter came to the line with a scope on top of the gun. and a flash light under attached to the handguard. i joked that, that was 2 optics and he'd have to shoot open. which lead to the discussion was it open? to me it's like a laser, on a dark cloudy day. you could use the light to help aim, so 2 optics open. at our matchs no big deal but if you showed up at the nationals what would happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 More matches are doing dark stages that almost require attaching a flash light to your gun. Mystery Mountain had one last year, the 3 gun match we put on in Waco had one too....at either of these a flash light was not an open class feature. Having a flashlight on your gun or the ability to mount one is just a practical feature to me, all of my several CAV-15s, shotguns, and pistols have provisions for mounting a light. as for USPSA.....no idea what their rules are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 IMHO, a flashlight is not an optic as you cannot look through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 You can't look through an Armson OEG either. Or an Aimpoint M2 or ACOG with the front lens closed off. But all of those can effectively be used as sights. Reading the current USPSA rules, I think it comes down to whether or not the device under question is an "aiming device" (as it clearly has lenses AND electronics, 5.1.3.2). I think the answer ought to be "no" for a flashlight. Just like how an honest to goodness sound suppressor on an otherwise "Tactical" should not punt it into open, I don't think devices used as illuminators ought to be considered a 2nd optic by anyone reasonable. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 You can't look through an Armson OEG either. Or an Aimpoint M2 or ACOG with the front lens closed off. But all of those can effectively be used as sights. You can't look through an Leupold Vari-X III 2.5 x10 with the front lens closed off but there is not a soul on the planet that would say it was not an optic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 You can't look through an Armson OEG either. Or an Aimpoint M2 or ACOG with the front lens closed off. But all of those can effectively be used as sights. You can't look through an Leupold Vari-X III 2.5 x10 with the front lens closed off but there is not a soul on the planet that would say it was not an optic. Nor can you look through a laser, but again, it's an electronic / optical sight. How de-focused does a flashlight need to be to not be useful as a sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Hah! I told you, skeeter! My flashlight makes no difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 If someone is skilled enough to actually use a flash light as a sighting system, I say let them. How about if I shoot tracers? Is that a secondary sighting system? Will I get DQ'ed if I set the range on fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Tracers aren't allowed in USPSA or IPSC matches. Rule 5.5.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Tracers aren't allowed in USPSA or IPSC matches. Rule 5.5.4 just kidding man, hence the face. We had someone shoot one by accident (forgot they had it in their mag) in Waco last month...it was pretty funny watching it hit the steel plate 100 yards away and spin to the ground still burning for a few seconds. With as much as it had rained, there wasn't any fire danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Just like how an honest to goodness sound suppressor on an otherwise "Tactical" should not punt it into open... At the 3GN Nationals in Reno, the Army team had a member get put into open class because his rifle had a silencer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Just like how an honest to goodness sound suppressor on an otherwise "Tactical" should not punt it into open... At the 3GN Nationals in Reno, the Army team had a member get put into open class because his rifle had a silencer. people using suppressors should get the "courteous shooter" award for caring about their hearing and everyone elses. If anything they make the rifle more difficult to shoot because of added length, and once they get hot the mirage off of them can be quite large through your sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I've only fired suppressed .22s ... so I can't tell what they do for recoil. Does a suppressor substantially affect recoil or muzzle flip? At the very least it would be considered a barrel weight, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Yes, suppressors cut recoil significantly. And they do it by re-purposing powder gas, just like a compensator. Search. Search Results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted December 6, 2004 Author Share Posted December 6, 2004 i still say it's an aiming device. if you turn it on and it lights the target you can shoot with it. just like a laser. sure you might not ever get a chance to use it but that doesn't mean it's not there. if i've got a long range scope and an aimpoint. and all the targets are up close and i don't use the scope i'm still open. this is just for fun and i don't care if you have a flashlight on your gun. i just want to know what the letter of the rule says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I understand how current rules apply to 'cans. My point was that IMO nobody should be punted into Open for an otherwise tactical rifle for having an honest to goodness 'can. Same for putting a flashlight or a AN/PEQ-2 on your rifle. Call it the "using real world equipment" clause. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 I don't think you can run your pistola with an attached flashlight and stay in limited. The light can be construed as an external weight. If you carry that rule over to rifle... that flashlight can be a no-no. There are so many ways to look at things that two opposing views can be "reasonable". With USPSA it's a toss up. With SMM3G it should be OK (otherwise all those people who taped on flashlights on the dark stage should have been bumped to open). If it was up to me it would be legal. But for Limited/Tactical it has to stay attached to the rifle the whole match. ... that's of course if it was up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Mine stays the way it is all the time, not just in matches. Oh, wait ... on Sunday I did flip-down the rear sight, when usually it is "up." I'm a gamer! We need Mr. McManus to weigh-in on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWG.223 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Ok so help me out as I am new to 3 gunning. What class would I be in shooting a DPMS 16" bull barrel with a 3x9 on top and a red dot mounted on the side...with a Remington 870 in 12 ga. and a Springfield XD in 9mm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 OPTICS & OPEN >= 1 optic on handgun or shotgun, or > 1 optic on rifle puts you in open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 CWG.223, Pull either the dot or the 3x9 off of the rifle and you would be in Tactical class. That class might be closer to the rest of your equip. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Ok so help me out as I am new to 3 gunning. What class would I be in shooting a DPMS 16" bull barrel with a 3x9 on top and a red dot mounted on the side...with a Remington 870 in 12 ga. and a Springfield XD in 9mm? In a USPSA 3-Gun "tournament," you would be: Open Rifle Limited Shotgun (assuming no ports, comp, or optics) Limited, Limited10, or Production Pistol depending on your other equipment and how many rounds you wish you load Your aggregate division for the tournament would be Open. As an earlier message said, if you removed one optic from the rifle, you'd go to Tactical Rifle and Tactical Aggregate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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