RT1200: do you have to chamfer/debur?

[SWThomas]

I just ordered one from Brian and have read that due to the cutter and speed you don't have to chamfer/debur. What has been your experience? I will be using this for 223 only.

[zmanktm]

I had the same concern that I would need to chamfer/debur. I shot groups with both chamfered/debured and groups not with little difference. I think as long as the cutter is real sharp it won't be a problem. I've shot several thousand rounds with out any problem.

[SWThomas]

Sounds good to me. How do you have yours set up? I was planning to size/deprime in station one and then trim in station three. I would set the trim die to where it doesn't change the sizing from station one, just trims.

[rjacobs]

In .308 I have found I need to chamfer(my wet stainless tumbler does a good job de-burring. With a chamfer I was shaving copper from the jackets of bullets.

.223 and 300BLK I have found does not need to be chamfered.

[fastarget]

rcbs neck sizer in station 5 will clean the inside up, no issues.

on a 650 the most efficient set up I have found is

size/deprime in one

RT1200 in 3 (you will need to make a short pin for your reloading head)

neck sizer in position 5.

[G29SF]

If you don't cut too-much too-fast, you should not have to do anything. Also, if you leave the handle down a hair longer it will leave a cleaner cut.

[roxfo]

I've never had to deburr - the cut is very clean (maybe due to running the 1050 quite slow - 750 per hour when trimming, with a slight dwell while cutting - and since my brass doesn't need much trimming off).

I can only relate my experience with 308, but instead of chamfering I use an M die to put just a tiny bit of flare on the case, which prevents shaving jackets or lead and actually aligns the bullet better before seating. After seating you can optionally remove the flare with a light touch from a taper crimp, but I've never found this necessary. In this case the M die also mitigates the very tight necks that result from the Dillon trim die.

..

[SWThomas]

Thanks fellas! This will be used for 223 only. I'll be doing all the 308 by hand.

[rjacobs]

I'll be doing all the 308 by hand.

Gross

[SWThomas]

I'll be doing all the 308 by hand.

Gross

HAHA! I don't load any blasting ammo in 308. It's all for precision shooting or hunting so I take the extra care to ensure it's all concentric and consistent. I'll be doing the same for 30-06 when that rifle is built.

[StealthyBlagga]

Like others said, the RT1200 makes a very clean cut. I'm not sure I like the idea of neck sizing after trimming as there is some potential to change the overall length. I tried a lot of different configurations when I was setting up for .223, and in the end I settled on using a Lee Universal Expander die to gently flare the case neck after trimming, which eases the insertion of the bullet and seems to eliminate any potential for shaving. Its not very much flare (less than the neck will expand to accept the bullet). Here are my toolhead setups:

Toolhead #1

A1) Deprime (RCBS Neck Sizer die) - reforms the neck with great uniformity

A2) Empty

A3) Full length resize and trim (Dillon RapidTrim die, turned down 1/8 turn past bottom)

A4) Empty

A5) Flare (Lee Universal Expander die, just the minimum of flare to ease bullet insertion)

... then I tumble the brass to remove the lube and flash from the trim operation, swage the primer pockets if necessary (Dillon SuperSwage), then run through the 650 using Toolhead #2:

B1) Deprime to remove any polishing media from the flash hole (Lee universal depriming die)

B2) Prime and dispense powder (Dillon powder die)

B3) Powder Check (Dillon, with a modified sensor tip so it does not hang up on the narrow case neck)

B4) Seat bullet (RCBS seating die)

B5) Crimp (Lee Factory Crimp die set for a very light crimp)

Overall, this arrangement produces very good, consistent and reliable ammo for me. It shoots sub MOA comfortably at 200 yards.

Note that you may have to turn the RT1200 trim die down up to 1/4 turn past bottom (I went about 1/8 of a turn). This forces the press to cam over center and enables you to consistently get the correct amount of sizing.

[roxfo]

HAHA! I don't load any blasting ammo in 308. It's all for precision shooting or hunting so I take the extra care to ensure it's all concentric and consistent.

Mine isn't quite what I'd call 'blasting' ammo either.

Last batch I made and tested was for international 300m competition, and it shot a 5 shot group into 14mm - in real money that's 0.55" at 328 yards, or 1/6 MOA. Sling & irons.

It was, as we say, 'good enough for government work'.

..

[rjacobs]

I'll be doing all the 308 by hand.

Gross

HAHA! I don't load any blasting ammo in 308. It's all for precision shooting or hunting so I take the extra care to ensure it's all concentric and consistent. I'll be doing the same for 30-06 when that rifle is built.

I mean your trimming here, its not rocket science IMO.

I trim all my 308 on the 550b and RT1200. I wont trim it on the auto drive 1050, although I am sure I could with equally good results. Its just setup to run to fast as is.

I do however full length size all my 308 brass every time so if you do a different process here, than maybe using the RT1200 to do 308 wouldnt be such a great idea.

I get 3-4 loadings out of .308 before I need to trim anyway and even if you just neck size, most people recommend a full length size every 3-4 firings anyway.

I can hold the 2.005 that .308 spec's damn near to .001 over a thousand cases(all Winchester) so I know the RT1200 can trim consistently when everything else is done consistently including head stamp.

I cant imagine trimming ANY cases by hand when you have an RT1200 ready to go with a simply change over onto a new die.

[SWThomas]

Like others said, the RT1200 makes a very clean cut. I'm not sure I like the idea of neck sizing after trimming as there is some potential to change the overall length. I tried a lot of different configurations when I was setting up for .223, and in the end I settled on using a Lee Universal Expander die to gently flare the case neck after trimming, which eases the insertion of the bullet and seems to eliminate any potential for shaving. Its not very much flare (less than the neck will expand to accept the bullet). Here are my toolhead setups:

Toolhead #1

A1) Deprime (RCBS Neck Sizer die) - reforms the neck with great uniformity

A2) Empty

A3) Full length resize and trim (Dillon RapidTrim die, turned down 1/8 turn past bottom)

A4) Empty

A5) Flare (Lee Universal Expander die, just the minimum of flare to ease bullet insertion)

... then I tumble the brass to remove the lube and flash from the trim operation, swage the primer pockets if necessary (Dillon SuperSwage), then run through the 650 using Toolhead #2:

B1) Deprime to remove any polishing media from the flash hole (Lee universal depriming die)

B2) Prime and dispense powder (Dillon powder die)

B3) Powder Check (Dillon, with a modified sensor tip so it does not hang up on the narrow case neck)

B4) Seat bullet (RCBS seating die)

B5) Crimp (Lee Factory Crimp die set for a very light crimp)

Overall, this arrangement produces very good, consistent and reliable ammo for me. It shoots sub MOA comfortably at 200 yards.

Note that you may have to turn the RT1200 trim die down up to 1/4 turn past bottom (I went about 1/8 of a turn). This forces the press to cam over center and enables you to consistently get the correct amount of sizing.

Where did I say I was going to neck size after trimming?

[SWThomas]

I'll be doing all the 308 by hand.

Gross

HAHA! I don't load any blasting ammo in 308. It's all for precision shooting or hunting so I take the extra care to ensure it's all concentric and consistent. I'll be doing the same for 30-06 when that rifle is built.

I mean your trimming here, its not rocket science IMO.

I trim all my 308 on the 550b and RT1200. I wont trim it on the auto drive 1050, although I am sure I could with equally good results. Its just setup to run to fast as is.

I do however full length size all my 308 brass every time so if you do a different process here, than maybe using the RT1200 to do 308 wouldnt be such a great idea.

I get 3-4 loadings out of .308 before I need to trim anyway and even if you just neck size, most people recommend a full length size every 3-4 firings anyway.

I can hold the 2.005 that .308 spec's damn near to .001 over a thousand cases(all Winchester) so I know the RT1200 can trim consistently when everything else is done consistently including head stamp.

I cant imagine trimming ANY cases by hand when you have an RT1200 ready to go with a simply change over onto a new die.

Different strokes. I don't load my 308 in large quantities and trimming them on my VERY concentric Wilson case trimmer is kind of fun anyway. I'm not in a hurry when I'm loading for precision, so I don't mind at all.

[StealthyBlagga]

...

Where did I say I was going to neck size after trimming?

Fastarget suggested it - I was counseling against the idea, that's all.

[SWThomas]

...

Where did I say I was going to neck size after trimming?

Fastarget suggested it - I was counseling against the idea, that's all.

No problem. I thought I may have posted something confusing.

[Mastiff]

Here's my plan, given I don't destroy the replacement trim die dillon replaced for me at no charge. Since I Decap, swage and clean first, I have my 1200 at station 5. Then I have the FL die partially turned down to do the case mouth with carbide ball only and I'm done. I start reloading I use cci srp, 1400 sierra bullet 53g and either win 748, reloader 7 or h335. Does that make sense?

[beerman]

my setup for toolhead #1 is:

#1 RCBS Lube die/deprime

#2 FL size die, i only use expander ball to ensure neck roundness

#3 empty

#4 trim die

#5 empty

then i throw the cases in the tumbler with a small ammount of media to degrease and knock off burrs.

loading setup:

#1 decapping die to ensure no media is stuck in primer flash hole
#2 powder
#3 lee universal expander die to eliminate bullet shaving

#4Redding competittion micrometer seater die

#5 Lee Factorycrimp

this setup works great for the lazy man who doesnt like to clean after the size/trim operation.

forgot to mention, this is .223Rem.

Edited January 5, 2014 by beerman

[SWThomas]

Beerman,

Being that the trim die sizes the brass, wouldn't it be easier and more efficient to let it size the brass and then use the expander die afterward? With the trim die there's really no need to use a sizing die.

Not sure what you mean by not having to clean after size/trim. You posted that you tumble the brass after you size/trim.

[RiggerJJ]

Doing any major sizing after trimming will possibly yeild inconsistent brass. I do 75% with the full length die first, then finish the sizing and trim with the trim die. This will get you great neck tension, why ruin that by expanding it again? Just slightly expand the mouth only to allow for clean bullet seating, and then bring it back after bullet seating with a small amount of crimp. Eliminates the need to deburr and chamfer too...

jmho

jj

[SWThomas]

Doing any major sizing after trimming will possibly yeild inconsistent brass. I do 75% with the full length die first, then finish the sizing and trim with the trim die. This will get you great neck tension, why ruin that by expanding it again? Just slightly expand the mouth only to allow for clean bullet seating, and then bring it back after bullet seating with a small amount of crimp. Eliminates the need to deburr and chamfer too...

jmho

jj

I'm not seeing where it would be major sizing to run a 0.222 mandrel down the neck after sizing the brass in the trim die... This is how I do it and my brass is very consistent. Same trim length and tension every time. When I initially set up the trim die and trimmer I sized/trimmed the brass and then ran it over the mandrel before I measured it for both OAL and headspace. That way I ensured the mandrel was not going to introduce issues after trimming.

I don't chamfur or deburr either. When I run the brass up into the trim die/trimmer, I achieve full travel which sizes and trims the brass, then back it off ever so slightly, then bottom it out again. I tried this double-bump method based on a recommendation from another forum member and it works great to knock off burrs created during the initial trim. I've verified that not doing this will leave a slight burr on the mouth. Then when I run the brass over the mandrel it cleans out the mouth even further. Tumbling to remove lube finishes the job and my brass comes out with very clean and burr-free mouths.

[beerman]

Beerman,

Being that the trim die sizes the brass, wouldn't it be easier and more efficient to let it size the brass and then use the expander die afterward? With the trim die there's really no need to use a sizing die.

Not sure what you mean by not having to clean after size/trim. You posted that you tumble the brass after you size/trim.

As i'm a Norwegian redneck, my English writing may not be the best. some times i even write without thinking

A friend told me to lube the cases with Dillon case lube, that gave me a shitload of gunk in the casefeeder.

Later i found the RCBS lube dies, this reduced the ammount of CLEANING of the casefeeder after sizing -I'm lazy :-)

After 75-100 cases, the die needs a refill.

my .223 brass is mostly range picked, i tumble before trimming, the case necks might be dented.

i run the expander ball to ensure that the neks are round, not any other shape.

Don't bother to debur, just put the brass in the tumbler and fill it full of brass.

Vibrations from tumbling removes all burrs.

Add a small ammount of Corn media to absorb the caselube.

Now the cases are ready for loading, at station #3, i use the lee universal expander die to gently bell/camfer the inside of the case.

Before i added the Lee expander die, i had minor bullet shaving in 5-10% of the cases.

Had to remove the powderchecker, But the cases are near full of VithaVouri N-140 so i can see if something's off.

Hope this makes the previous post more clear

[Doc Hunter]

A Lyman "M" die is your friend.

[SWThomas]

As i'm a Norwegian redneck, my English writing may not be the best. some times i even write without thinking

A friend told me to lube the cases with Dillon case lube, that gave me a shitload of gunk in the casefeeder.

Later i found the RCBS lube dies, this reduced the ammount of CLEANING of the casefeeder after sizing -I'm lazy :-)

After 75-100 cases, the die needs a refill.

my .223 brass is mostly range picked, i tumble before trimming, the case necks might be dented.

i run the expander ball to ensure that the neks are round, not any other shape.

Don't bother to debur, just put the brass in the tumbler and fill it full of brass.

Vibrations from tumbling removes all burrs.

Add a small ammount of Corn media to absorb the caselube.

Now the cases are ready for loading, at station #3, i use the lee universal expander die to gently bell/camfer the inside of the case.

Before i added the Lee expander die, i had minor bullet shaving in 5-10% of the cases.

Had to remove the powderchecker, But the cases are near full of VithaVouri N-140 so i can see if something's off.

Hope this makes the previous post more clear

That makes sense. Thanks!

Edited January 6, 2014 by SWThomas