Holstered gun...during fall

[SmittyFL]

I feel the question has been answered correctly so I don't think I'm hijacking the thread.

A bud and I were talking the other day, what if you fall forward on your face after the start but before you draw your gun. The gun still in the holster but now a loaded gun is pointing at the crowd.

I was thinking of this on stage 12 at the nationals. You started laying back in a chair and most folks got up and started towards the targets prior to drawing. It was a good spot to fall forward trying to get out of the chair quick.

Would this be a rule infraction?

[Barrettone]

Smitty,

I am familiar with the stage you are speaking of, and I discussed that very question with the CRO (actually he is an RM) that was running the stage. USPSA considers a holster a safe retention device, therefore, as long as the gun is in the holster, and not in the hands of the competitor, regardless of orientation of the muzzle, it is deemed safe. The only way that sweeping can be called is if the gun is outside the holster, and in the hands of the competitor. Apparently, and I agree, the gun can't fire (theoretically) if the trigger is covered, and innaccessible to the competitor (it can be scary to think about a loaded gun pointed rearward however). Now, should you be lying prone, and attempt to draw, I would say that the gloves are off, as the gun is no longer in a holster, and the muzzle is breaking 180 (rearward). Also, one could argue that starting in a chase lounger facing uprange could cause the same concern even though you had him LAMR while facing downrange and then holster. Now while I would not ever design such a stage, there is nothing in the rulebook preventing it. However, as course designers, we need to try to avoid purposely putting competitors in these situations. If I did this, I woulf certainly have the gallery shift to one side of the range rather than letting them stand directly behind the shooter. In your scenario, however, it is unforeseen, and cannot be planned for. I hope this helps.

Jeff

[Vince Pinto]

USPSA considers a holster a safe retention device, therefore, as long as the gun is in the holster, and not in the hands of the competitor, regardless of orientation of the muzzle, it is deemed safe.

Are you sure?:

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

[Jake Di Vita]

Vince,

What about the people that have the gun canted so the muzzle points in front of your feet. They would be breaking the 180 authomatically if they ever had to start facing uprange.

[Vince Pinto]

What about the people that have the gun canted so the muzzle points in front of your feet. They would be breaking the 180 authomatically if they ever had to start facing uprange.

When it comes to "the angle of the dangle" we have:

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing: <snip>

........ 5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 1 meter (3.28 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed, <snip>

and

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.

but I'd like to change the word "rearward" to "uprange", because it more accurately describes what we're trying to say.

[Jim Norman]

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.

Please note that this refers to competitor action. In the described instance, the competitor was not drawing or re-holstering. A very similar situation occurs when rising from a chair. You have a holstered handgun, in a "CANTED" style holster. While sitting it is OK, but as you lean forward, the muzzle will of necessity cover those behind you. The only remedy would be to require the shooter to rise vertically from the chair without leaning forward.

If the competitor draws while rising, then 10.5.6 would apply, but not while simply rising. Same goes for falling face first ontot he range. As long as the gun has not been removed from the holster and the competior has not started his draw, then I would say no foul.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

If the competitor draws while rising, then 10.5.6 would apply, but not while simply rising. Same goes for falling face first ontot he range. As long as the gun has not been removed from the holster and the competior has not started his draw, then I would say no foul.

If you fall flat on your face during a COF, Rule 10.5.2 does not include an exception for allowing the muzzle to point uprange "while the gun is holstered".

Moreover, this should also not be confused with going prone with a holstered gun during a walkthrough, because that is not during a COF.

[Jim Norman]

But neither does it specifically address the situation. The competitor has not drawn, He has not changed the position of his firearm in the holster from that which is determined to be acceptable while standing relaxed. If he were still standing the muzzle would be within the 1 meter circle. He has fallen and the gun, although loaded, was not being drawn or re-holstered. The gun did not fall out of the holster and the competitor did not therefore break the 180 any more than he would while simply bending forward to rise from a seated posiotion.

My opinion.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

But neither does it specifically address the situation.

Yes, it does:

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

You're trying to qualify a simple, all-encompassing rule by saying it doesn't specifically apply to a holstered gun, but where in the rule does it say so??

The rule says "at any time" - there are no exceptions. What you might want the rule to say, and what is actually says, are two different things entirely.

[Jim Norman]

OK, so any holster that points the gun rearward to the maximum while standing would result in a automatic DQ if while rising from a seated position, the shooter bent forward at all.

You are saying that any holster that meets the maximum allowable angle while standing would result in a DQ if worn while rising for seated.

Simple enough, anyone wearing a FBI cant holster that starts seated gets DQ's if he bends at all while rising. I understand.

Jim Norman

[Jake Di Vita]

"5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 1 meter (3.28 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed, <snip>"

So does this mean that I can break the 180 if it is less than a meter behind me? (Rhetorical question).

[Vince Pinto]

OK, so any holster that points the gun rearward to the maximum while standing would result in a automatic DQ if while rising from a seated position, the shooter bent forward at all.

I don't know because, in my experience, I've never seen anybody wearing a holster which causes the muzzle of their gun to point 1 metre from their feet while standing relaxed.

You are saying that any holster that meets the maximum allowable angle while standing would result in a DQ if worn while rising for seated.

Um, no, I didn't say that, you did. Above. Twice.

Simple enough, anyone wearing a FBI cant holster that starts seated gets DQ's if he bends at all while rising. I understand.

Not necessarily, but in the unlikely event that he bends over at the waist to tie his shoe laces during a course of fire, and he points the muzzle of his gun uprange, then Rule 10.5.2 says he gets a match DQ. Then again, in my experience, most people kneel on one knee to tie their shoe laces, so the muzzle of their gun does not breach the 1 metre radius.

Anyway, this topic has gone waaaay off on a tangent so, since the original question has been answered, I'll close it.

[Flexmoney]

I split the drift our of the original topic as this seems to deserve it's own thread.

[Barrettone]

I think the question goes to course design. We shouldn't put the shotter in a pickle in the first place. As for the shooter falling forward with a holstered gun while loaded, I would have a hard time DQ'ing the competitor if it remained in the holster, as the gun was not in the shooters hands. We operate out of holsters because they are the safest way to store a loaded firearm on ones person, period. Other sports do not utilize holsters, and are not as safe as far as I'm concerned. If the trigger is covered (as per IPSC rules), then there is no danger IMHO. 10.5.2 needs more clarification in this regard, as it should not apply to holstered guns. As Vince staqtes, it is apparent that there is grounds for a DQ. Remember, RO's are there to make sure that everyone is safe, and goes home at the end of the day. The RO needs to decide if anything was done that was unsafe. If the answer is no, then there should not be a DQ. The rulebook cannot cover every possible scenario. Now, if the competitor is, say, prone, and tries to draw, then that is a different story altogether. Bottomline, it is a judgement call.

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

Jeff,

Though I agree with you. For me, the bottom line for a DQ call should be supported by the rule book. I hate to see "judgement" creep in there.

Just look at this thread...depending on the "judge", the call could go different ways. That is something we don't want to see in our game.

This would be a great question for an actual ruling from NROI (Amidon).

[SmittyFL]

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one not clear on this.

My gut agrees with Jim and Barrett, but according to the rules I would have to go with Vince.

I searched for a thread but couldn't find it. Does anyone remember a thread about a shooter arbitrating a DQ and winning because it wasn't really unsafe or something like that. I can't remember the actual circumstances but he either drew prior to the LAMR or dropped his gun during GCHDH or something like that. I would guess this could be considered the same.

Damn, that last paragraph sounds like case law.....this stuff is getting to confusing. I sure am glad I don't have to write the rule book. We feel for ya Vinny.

[Skywalker]

I guess there is not much that can be argumented here; according to IPSC rules:

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

Thus, loaded/unloaded, hostered or handled or whatever, if you let the muzzle point uprange during a COF you hit the showers. Period.

This is the rule, and this is what we have to enforce.

We could start a debate if a (loaded) holstered gun is intrinsically unsafe or not, and we could even ask our Regional Directors to petition an amendment according to the discussion conclusions, but for the moment the rule is clear and enforceable.

My gut feeling is that I don't care at all if the gun is holstered or not, I wouldn't want to be swept by a loaded handgun (especially during a sporting competition...), thus I like this rule as it is. For me it's a sort of failsafe concept applied.

[Neil Beverley]

You won't find this in the rule book but a test I will often apply when considering the rights and wrongs of a scenario (rule) is to go one step further. So ..........

How would you feel if someone with a loaded but holstered gun took the gun and holster off the belt and then walked around with it all day at the back of the range? The holstered and loaded gun being carried horizontally.

If you wouldn't feel comfortable with this, and I suggest you shouldn't, then you must support the rule as written because it deals with a simliar possibility. You could end up sweeping another person with a loaded gun albeit that it is holstered.

On the grounds of our multiple redundancy safety measures why would we want to ever allow it to happen?

[SmittyFL]

I don't buy the walking around with a loaded gun in the holster analogy, the shooter in the COF is with a RO. But I agree with the multiple redundancy statement.

I'm the last person that wants more rules, I just wanted clarification on this. My only concern would be, knowing this rule, if I tripped prior to the draw (which would be a rare stage) and was on the way to busting my ass, I would probably try and draw quickly before I fell. That seems less safe than leaving it in the holster and getting back up before drawing. But may save me a DQ.

It would be an extremely rare scenario, so the rule is probably best left as-is.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Steve Moneypenny]

the whole loaded gun walking aroudn in a holster USPSA deems handling a gun while off person still in a holster is gun handling DQ

Think about this for a second if the competitor did not touch the gun. he just fell flat on his face, how the hell can you DQ a guy, presuming he also got up and did not draw the gun?

I shoot production, my gun would have remained in the holster. if you tried real hard you might look up the slid ant see the muzzel... i garentee you would have had one mean pissed off shoter after that DQ call.

this whole "we must follow the rules" there is not a "rule" or even a precident for this...

[Jim Norman]

OK,

Lets take a very specific holster and a very specific scenerio. Both of which occur in real life.

I have a Galco Slide, canted leather holster, very comfortable and concealable. It carries a 1911 very high and tight, when standing naturally erect, the muzzle points rearward, but not past the 1 meter point. Therefore allowed by the rulebook.

5.2.7.3 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing further than 1 meter (3.28 feet) from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed...

This implies that as long as the muzzle does not point beyond 1 meter it is OK,

This would seem to contradict

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

Given this contradiction, where do we go?

What is the call when I rise from seated and bend forward as I so rise? Try it yourselves. Just put your hand on your hip in the position of a gun, forefinger extended to simulate the muzzle within, but only just with in the 1 meter line while standing, now rise from a seated position. Use a standard metal chair.

Jim Norman

[Skywalker]

Think about this for a second if the competitor did not touch the gun. he just fell flat on his face, how the hell can you DQ a guy, presuming he also got up and did not draw the gun?

Easy: he allowed the muzzle of his gun to point uprange. He allowed that by falling and not by directly handling the gun, but he allowed it. For safety sake IPSC rules don't allow the muzzle to point uprange, in any case, no exceptions.

Sorry Steve, don't wanna sound hars, but I just can't conceive allowing this to happen. I'll take all possible actions to ensure my muzzle won't point uprange, included stepping carefully not to trip and fall, if the range surface is compromised. If I don't, and fall, it's my fault, not the rules one.

this whole "we must follow the rules" there is not a "rule" or even a precident for this...

Sorry, but I really don't get the meaning of it.

[Vince Pinto]

This would seem to contradict

There is no contradiction. We don't want the muzzle of a loaded gun to point uprange - period - but we allow some wiggle room in respect of muzzle angle due to the design of many of the holsters we use, however the muzzle is still pointed at the ground, not directly at people.

The above is also consistent with our rules on sweeping. We don't want sweeping to occur - period - but we allow some wiggle room due to the design of many of the holsters we use (sound familiar?), but the only person likely to get injured with a discharge is the person drawing the gun. Despite this, I already advised you guys in another thread that I'm proposing a rule amendment which would cancel the exception for sweeping on the draw if your finger is in the trigger guard.

Finally, how many competitors fall flat on their face with a loaded and holstered gun during a COF each year? If your answer starts with "Ummmm", you're spending way too much time making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Jim Norman]

Two seperate and distinct items. Falling with holsterd gun and a cant holster that points rearward when rising from a chair.

I am strictly addressing the latter.

In fact I did a bit of empirical study, If I wear my regular Straight Up and Down Blade-Tec and lean forward to rise from a chair, i will point past 1 meter behind me.

I would simmply suggest no one stand directly behind a shooter rising from a chair, but that may be too simple and elegant a solution to this.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Two seperate and distinct items. Falling with holsterd gun and a cant holster that points rearward when rising from a chair. I am strictly addressing the latter.

In that case, the rules will never be able to deal with course designers who don't have a clue about safety. If he wants to use, say, a low chaise lounge chair in a start position, then the gun can easily be placed on a table, to increase safety without detracting from the fun aspects of the COF.

There's no reason (other than sheer bloody-mindedness) for a course designer to insist on the gun being holstered while the competitor starts seated in a low chaise lounge chair, when the course designer knows damn well that when the competitor rises, the muzzle of a loaded gun will point directly uprange. This is also why we have Rule 5.2.5.3.

Such scenarios create an unneccessary and unacceptable risk that the competitor might draw his gun while the muzzle is pointed uprange, but that's never going to happen on my watch.