Art Yeo Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) A very experienced older friend of mine requested me to post this query ... has anyone seen this behavior? ============================================================================ In reloaded Winchester 40 s&w brass (one was 45 acp), I and four other shooters have experienced six blowups. The back part of the case separates from the body leaving a disk of brass proudly showing Winchester 40 s&w laying on the ground. This also includes powder burns on your face, a damaged extractor and a ruined magazine. All the loads were moderate. My two were my reloads, the other four guys bought bulk reloads at gun shows with mixed brass. Nothing but Winchester has blown. All the remaining sleeves of the blown cases slide right out of the chamber showing no sign of excess pressure. This has occurred over a period of a year and a half. We no longer shoot Winchester. The cases in question are a newer design where the inside bottom near the flash hole is very flat and there is a bead of brazed brass weld attaching the case wall to the case head. Someone said these are being made overseas for Winchester to save cost. Old style cases have a very rounded inside and are stamped from a solid piece of brass. I cut several new cases in half on a band saw and found fracture lines and voids in the metal where the two pieces are joined. They hold together for first firing but are unsafe to reload. The failure rate seem to be one in 4-5 hundred but it leaves a lasting memory, I had to use tweezers to remove all the brass shards from my face, thank you safety glasses. Has anyone else experienced this, at first you think you made a mistake in loading, but it is a material failure. It can't only be five shooters at one range. No other brand of case has failed. ============================================================================ Edited August 9, 2013 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodemonkey Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 None so far, but I've got a match tomorrow and now you are making me nervous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glc Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 The cases in question are a newer design where the inside bottom near the flash hole is very flat and there is a bead of brazed brass weld attaching the case wall to the case head. Someone said these are being made overseas for Winchester to save cost Those would be use once and throw away for sure. Saving cost or not,that is not a very wise construction method. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Sounds fishy to me. You can't weld brass and brazing is not going to hold up to the pressure of a 40 cal round. So i'm kinda curious as to how these cases are put together if in fact they aren't one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost21 Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 A very experienced older friend of mine requested me to post this query ... has anyone seen this behavior? ============================================================================ In reloaded Winchester 40 s&w brass (one was 45 acp), I and four other shooters have experienced six blowups. The back part of the case separates from the body leaving a disk of brass proudly showing Winchester 40 s&w laying on the ground. This also includes powder burns on your face, a damaged extractor and a ruined magazine. All the loads were moderate. My two were my reloads, the other four guys bought bulk reloads at gun shows with mixed brass. Nothing but Winchester has blown. All the remaining sleeves of the blown cases slide right out of the chamber showing no sign of excess pressure. This has occurred over a period of a year and a half. We no longer shoot Winchester. The cases in question are a newer design where the inside bottom near the flash hole is very flat and there is a bead of brazed brass weld attaching the case wall to the case head. Someone said these are being made overseas for Winchester to save cost. Old style cases have a very rounded inside and are stamped from a solid piece of brass. I cut several new cases in half on a band saw and found fracture lines and voids in the metal where the two pieces are joined. They hold together for first firing but are unsafe to reload. The failure rate seem to be one in 4-5 hundred but it leaves a lasting memory, I had to use tweezers to remove all the brass shards from my face, thank you safety glasses. Has anyone else experienced this, at first you think you made a mistake in loading, but it is a material failure. It can't only be five shooters at one range. No other brand of case has failed. ============================================================================ Contact Winchester ,and tell them what you have found, send them pics of the blown brass as well as pics of cases you have sawn in half. If they are shipping these cases out like that maybe its a problem they haven't heard about. IT would be something to follow up on, Maybe you will save the next guys eyes and/or hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I've reloaded some late production Winchester .40 brass with no issues. But then I chuck mine after 4 loadings max. new production Winchester white box has been working fine in our issued G22s. I'd shitcan all of that suspect brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainlineSteve Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 There seem to be three case types of WINCHESTER 40 S&W stamped brass. The two old-style case types have a very narrow font and the stamp is lightly struck. One is a flat-bottomed or nearly flat solid head case, the other has a depression around the primer hole. These cases have never let me down. The new case design uses a much larger font for the WINCHESTER 40 S&W stamp. These new cases seem to have slight differences. The first is the depth of the logo stamp strike. The second is the look of the area surrounding the primer hole. Looking at the cases I have, lighter logo strikes make for a less uniform look around the primer hole and an uglier, more pronounced "weld" line. Some have striations radiating from the primer hole toward the case wall. Some have a slight, off-center ring around the primer hole. My guess is that the cases are not being struck hard enough in the manufacturing process, making for weak forging. Winchester needs to tighten up the quality control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 If you have a sample, I would send it to Winchester w/a letter explaining the situation. If cases are rupturing, I'm pretty sure they'll want to do something about it before someone gets hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainlineSteve Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I would like to know what make/model guns these guys were shooting, as well as the loads used, but the provenance of this story seems a bit murky. I have reloaded a small qty of this brass in medium Titegroup loads in 40SW and have experienced no blowouts to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckols Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Art I agree with the several comments to get right with Winchester ASAP with all the pictures and hard data you can lay hands on. I would think and expect as a minimum that they will have a Company rep visit you directly in short order. This sounds like a major issue for the Company's quality control systems. Fortunately, no one has received any serious injuries from these incidents. For me I am going to tighten up my range safety habits in case I experience what you guys went through. Thanks for the heads up! Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainlineSteve Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 A big question is, "Where has this brass been?" All mentioned blow-ups were with reloads. We know that some were purchased from a "reloader" at a gun show. How safe a practice is that? What was the bullet, powder, charge, oal? These were 40SW. Were they crimped? Were these glock guppy cases? Art, what was the history of the brass that you (I assume) reloaded? I have about 50 of these with various depths of stamp and courseness of inner "weld". Am wondering if it's possible to determine which will fail by merely eyeballing/measuring them in some way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Just for the records, I posted the original piece of "glad tidings" on behalf of a friend at the range. I did not reload any ammo for him. I shall fwd your questions to him and will post his answers for you. He's an older gentleman and he has many years of extensive reloading and shooting experience. Edited August 22, 2013 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cautery Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 In case there might accidentally be someone reading this thread who does not KNOW and PRACTICE the following: DO NOT USE reloads that YOU did not PERSONALLY work up and load..... PERIOD! DO NOT use ammuntition for which you do not know the source. Exception can be made for re-manufactured ammuntion by a reputable and licensed ammunition manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainlineSteve Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Art, when I originally read the post, I thought that a friend had asked you to relate his story. But then I thought maybe he asked you to share your own story. Right the first time, it seems. Thanks for the clarification and for passing along our questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 If you have a sample, I would send it to Winchester w/a letter explaining the situation. If cases are rupturing, I'm pretty sure they'll want to do something about it before someone gets hurt. Looks like my friend has discarded all the WIN cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 A big question is, "Where has this brass been?" All mentioned blow-ups were with reloads. We know that some were purchased from a "reloader" at a gun show. How safe a practice is that? What was the bullet, powder, charge, oal? These were 40SW. Were they crimped? Were these glock guppy cases? Art, what was the history of the brass that you (I assume) reloaded? I have about 50 of these with various depths of stamp and courseness of inner "weld". Am wondering if it's possible to determine which will fail by merely eyeballing/measuring them in some way... I do not think he can tell the history of the cases. They were picked on from the range, like what many people do and reloaded after visual inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 (edited) I would like to know what make/model guns these guys were shooting, as well as the loads used, but the provenance of this story seems a bit murky. I have reloaded a small qty of this brass in medium Titegroup loads in 40SW and have experienced no blowouts to date. Here's his answer: "2 Glock 27s, 1 Sig, 1 CZ, 1 HK, 1 Kimber 45. Nothing loaded hot." Edited September 2, 2013 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 (edited) If there was a problem with Winchester brass we would be hearing similar stories from various sources. This seems to be an isolated case with some questionable practices such as buying reloads from an unknown source. Edited September 2, 2013 by retarmyaviator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 (edited) If there was a problem with Winchester brass we would be hearing similar stories from various sources. This seems to be an isolated case with some questionable practices such as buying reloads from an unknown source. Pertaining to the reloaders who sold at the gun show: "These are licensed ammo remanufacturers making 100s of thousands of rounds in several calibers. ONLY WIN kabooms. Haven't seen one for a while. Thank goodness." Edited September 2, 2013 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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