pwalker Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Rule 8.7.3 says "When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Does the second sentence disallow a competitor from doing a practice draw on the first target after the LAMR? I noticed one competitor at a recent Level I match doing such a practice draw on the first. After the LAMR, he would pull out the gun, check that his optical sight was turned on, place the gun back in the holster, then do a dry draw on the first target. Then he would insert the magazine and load the gun, waiting for the next command. I was not ROing so I did not intervene but suggested to him later that he might get into trouble doing a practice draw with a more knowledgable RO on the line. Before I confirm to him that his practice draw technique is a no-no, can someone please confirm that I've got the right rule and I am interpreting it correctly. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Peter, The thrust of the rule is that the starting line or starting box is not a Safety Area, which is the place that you're free to go if you want to repeatedly practice your draw. However if, on the LAMR command, a competitor draws his gun rapidly as one final practice, no harm, no foul. We just don't want people standing on the line repeatedly practicing their draw and/or testing their sight picture on every visible target. Remember that IPSC is about "shooting on demand". We allow walkthroughs for safety reasons (so that there are no surprises), but the only time you're supposed to have your gun actually pointed at each target is after the Start Signal, when the meter is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 (edited) Bull Butter! What is this "thrust of the rule" crap Vinnie??? We don't read the rules as we see fit...we read them as they are written. Lets not go confusing things by trying to bend this rule into something it isn't. Peter, if any RO gives you any crap about doing what you buddy did...send them to me for an attitude adjustment. Edited November 2, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 (edited) Bull Butter! What is this "thrust of the rule" crap Vinnie??? We don't read the rules as we see fit...we read them as they are written. Lets not go confusing things by trying to bend this rule into something it isn't. Peter, if any RO gives you any crap about doing what you buddy did...send them to me for an attitude adjustment. Instead of replying aggressively and offensively to me, and dismissing my reply, perhaps you could answer Peter's question, unless of course you're willing to pay the airfares of Thai ROs who need an "attitude adjustment"? Edited November 2, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Naaaah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Ok, so you CAN practice your draw on ONE target as much as you like. But, you CAN'T index to the next target at all. One practice draw doesn't seem excessive compared to some of the things that I have seen in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Rule 8.7.3 says "When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence." Peter, As I read it, I see nothing to prevent one from sighting on a single target. Everyone has to load, so use the opportunity to practice your first draw and verify your sights. The rule, again, As I read it is to keep you from bustin' off down range checking out your firing sequence on a bunch of targets or seeing how you are going to hold your gun when you get to that really low port, "while taking a sight picture." FWIW, from a redneck, deep in the Heart of Dixie. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 The rule, again, As I read it is to keep you from bustin' off down range checking out your firing sequence on a bunch of targets or seeing how you are going to hold your gun when you get to that really low port, "while taking a sight picture." Rule 8.3.1.1 prohibits actually leaving the starting line or box (but there's no penalty for doing so under the USPSA version). The expression "Shooting Position" in Rule 8.7.3 is defined in the Glossary as "The physical presentation of a person's body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone)". Hence, when Rule 8.7.3 says "test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture", this means that if, say, the COF forces you to kneel or go prone after the Start Signal, you cannot kneel or go prone at the starting line while taking a sight picture after LAMR. By the same token, Rule 8.7.3 prevents you from standing on the start line and taking a sight picture on every visible target. However Peter's question actually asks about competitors also practicing their draw as they are about to take a sight picture, and my reply is above - one time is no big deal, but the start line is not the place to practice repeated draws (see Section 2.4). Having said all that, I note that most of Section 8.7 is "Not Applicable" in the USPSA version of the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Damn, I KNOW not to try to interpret rules. especially those what ain't applicable dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 (edited) Vince. I agree with the IPSC rules in regards to sight pictures (even though I feel one sight picture is too much). Shooters who come to the line are expected to be ready to shoot, period. Perhaps IPSC should add a 30 second time limit so that if a shooter comes to the line and is given the LAMR command and they do not acknowledge that they are ready in 30 seconds, they will be asked to unload and move to the back of the line. Edited November 2, 2004 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Vince. I agree with the IPSC rules in regards to sight pictures (even though I feel one sight picture is too much). Shooters who come to the line are expected to be ready to shoot, period. This is why, under IPSC rules, the MD has the option to prohibit sight pictures. Frankly I've seen way too many "prima donnas" come to the line and waste a whole minute fiddling with their electronic sight, whereas the majority of Open Division competitors seem to know that "Dial Position 5", which worked on the last 10 stages, is what they need for the stage they're about to attempt. The other thing I've noticed over the years is that the guys who put on a show for us during LAMR are usually the same guys who give us little "look at me flipping & catching my last round" show at the end. The only show which impresses me is a really good hit factor, but that's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Rule 8.7.3 says "When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence." From the under line state, my openion, its mean NO PRACTICING only SIGHTS CHECKING is allowed. Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Opps! I mean "NO PRACTICING is allowed, only ONE SIGHTS CHECKING is allowed. Remember that IPSC is about "shooting on demand". We allow walkthroughs for safety reasons (so that there are no surprises), but the only time you're supposed to have your gun actually pointed at each target is after the Start Signal, when the meter is running. Vince, are there any rules about this: We intentionally set up a surprise-stage, no shooters may walkthrough. Let say, one day match, RO set the stage up in the morning and have enough wall or barrier so no one may see the stage from outside. A shooter, one at a time, enter the stage after LAMR and then look for the targets and shoot. mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryDGeek Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Having said all that, I note that most of Section 8.7 is "Not Applicable" in the USPSA version of the rulebook. There's probably a reason for that. And there's probably a reason why IPSC has authored a rule saying that you can take a sight-picture on only ONE target. (I'm not sure what that reason is, or how the RO can definitively determine whether the sight-picture engages a single pepper-popper or also includes the pepper-popper right next to it, or how looking over your sights at two targets slows the match to a measurable degree.) My best guess is that the purpose of this rule is to prevent the match from being slowed down by competitors who feel that their competitive performance is enhanced by seeing the sight picture on multiple targets ... indexing on the entire starting array may be 'hard-wired' on a short term basis by this practice, but it may indeed slow down the match. However, my experience is that some of the finest shooters in the world (anecdotal evidence is available from anyone who has watched Tod Jarrett 'prep' himself before a stage) don't spend their time getting sight-pictures, but in checking the drop of their start-magazine. Repeatedly. I note in passing, appropos of nothing in particular, that there are no rules which speed the match by prohibiting competitors from repeatedly checking how their magazines drop, testing every magazine on their Bat-Belts before they finally decide what magazine to load into their pistol before they assume the "Start" position. Has IPSC contemplated appropriate rules verbiage to eliminate this practice? Working as a Range Officer in at least one Level-III match, I have unilaterally determined that this does, in fact, slow down the match. Someone ought to look into this .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Has IPSC contemplated appropriate rules verbiage to eliminate this practice? Working as a Range Officer in at least one Level-III match, I have unilaterally determined that this does, in fact, slow down the match. The issue has not escaped us but, rather than impose a general time limit such as we have with Rule 5.7.3, we took a different approach with the LAMR rigmarole by identifying the most common cause of delays and restricting it. The "slippery magazine test" is not "stage specific", so most competitors conduct their testing in the Safety Area with empty magazines (and TJ only takes a few seconds on the line), whereas the "I need to check my sights on all 16 targets" desire by some competitors is what really slows down stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Vince, I can appreciate you pet-peeve against shooters taking a overtly long time to LAMR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 I split off the thread drifting about "Suprise Stages". I also edited out the comment I made about IDPA (and the backlash). I said it to get Vince fired up a bit (which I did. tee-hee). I didn't intend to bash IDPA with it...which would be against forum rules anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 to verify that their sights are prepared as required I know what the sights look like. I need to do 10-15 draws to assure myself that the sights will still be on the gun when I start shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 to verify that their sights are prepared as required I know what the sights look like. I need to do 10-15 draws to assure myself that the sights will still be on the gun when I start shooting. Why? Has Erik Warren breathed in the vicinity of your blaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Has Erik Warren breathed in the vicinity of your blaster? No, but He will read this post, and think dark thoughts. Seriously, this rule will be ignored in the US. Will it be enforced at low level matches in the rest of the world? If so, is it really needed? If not enforced, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Seriously, this rule will be ignored in the US. Will it be enforced at low level matches in the rest of the world? If so, is it really needed? If not enforced, why not? No, I don't think it will be ignored in the USA, because the subject rules are "not applicable" in the USA, so you can do whatever you like at the LAMR command, including your 15 practice draws - I'm sure nobody will mind ........ Anyway, I can't speak for every match, in every Region but, based on my experiences, I think I can confidently say "Yes", the rule will indeed be enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 My pet-peeve here (as a shooter) is the RO that puts the rush on the competitor. I've never seen a shooter take so long that it truely slowed the pace of the match. (Though I am sure there are instances of such.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 We are going to try the "no sight pictures" approach in our next level III. To do so, we need to add a sentence to every stage briefing but it might help weed out some bad habits that we've seen growing recently. It should stop the "practice draw" bad habit if there is a -10 penalty for taking a sight picture on a target. Now, if only we could find some way to stop some of our guys doing the flip-the-round-in-the-air-circus-trick at the Show Clear command... We've tried telling the culprits that: a. it is rude b. ROs dont like it c. it damages your gun (not sure if this is true) d. there is a risk of an AD DQ. But, to no avail. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 We are going to try the "no sight pictures" approach in our next level III. Be sure to get that out in your match annoucement as well. There may be some shooters that would like to have that information when choosing where to spend their match dollars. Now, if only we could find some way to stop some of our guys doing the flip-the-round-in-the-air-circus-trick at the Show Clear command... We've tried telling the culprits that: a. it is rude - that is a personal opinion b. ROs dont like it - when did the game become about the RO's? What about the shooter? c. it damages your gun (not sure if this is true) - I've not heard that, but that would be the shooters decision to make d. there is a risk of an AD DQ. - This one has been beat around quite a bit on other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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