What can I do to a gun without making it an open gun in Three Gun?

[Zeke013]

This is a Three Gun question:

I am looking at some great limited 2011 guns - but it seems to me that many of them would force me into Open, despite the cosmetic only upgrades.

For instance, the Brazos Custom High Performance Edge, has an enhanced mag well added. Despite being advertised as a Limited gun, it'll be open due to the external enhancements. Arguably, its drilled and tapped mag release counts as an external mod.

Infinity Pistols has a great Team Limited gun - but will put me into Open in a heartbeat despite having no comp.

How do I get a limited 2011 gun that is in a "factory configuration" without getting a bone stock STI or other gun?

Is there anyone here shooting a "custom" 2011 gun in limited?

Edited title for clarity.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Zeke013

[TerryO]

Not sure where you're getting that from. Basically no comp, no optic, 140mm mags... Good to go limited.

[blairmckenzie1]

Magwells are good to go, I think the rule you are referring to is talking about hanging a weight off of the front to control muzzle rise.

"External modifications or features such as weights or devices to

control or reduce recoil (such as but not limited to thumb rests or

components which could be used as such)."

Limited is basically Open without a comp and a thumb rest.

Appendix D2:

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

[TerryO]

Thumb rest OK now, isn't it?

Edited June 24, 2013 by TerryO

[blairmckenzie1]

oh yeah forgot that changed this year..

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I suggest you get a rulebook and read it. Then you can decide which division you would like to shoot in. Thanks, Eric

[Loves2Shoot]

Go to a local match and get some input from shooters. They will be more than glad to help you understand the rules. Limited, .40 cal minimum for major, not optic, no comp, and 140mm mags are the major differences between Limited and Open.

[Zeke013]

I shot Ironman this year. The rules require guns be "of a factory configuration." I presumed that meant no added magwell.

I presume that is wrong. And I presumed a new mag release button would alter the original factory configuration as well. I presume that's incorrect.

What about a lightened slide?

5.2 Handgun - Limited and Scoped Tactical Class

5.2.1 Firearms must be of a factory configuration.

5.2.2 Internal modifications are allowed providing they do not alter the original factory configuration of the handgun.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Zeke013

[blairmckenzie1]

Ironman has their own set of rules, look at the gallery section here on Enos. There is a good limited/limited 10 section. I think you will find that there are plenty of options.

[38SuperDub]

What game do you want this for? USPSA? If so you can basically do anything you want just no comp and no optic. As others said. Go read the rules for better understanding and look at the gallery.

[MGMorden]

I shot Ironman this year. The rules require guns be "of a factory configuration." I presumed that meant no added magwell. I presume that is wrong. And I presumed a new mag release button would alter the original factory configuration as well. I presume that's incorrect. What about a lightened slide? 5.2 Handgun - Limited and Scoped Tactical Class 5.2.1 Firearms must be of a factory configuration. 5.2.2 Internal modifications are allowed providing they do not alter the original factory configuration of the handgun.

I think the issue is that you're looking at the Ironman limited rules. MGM Ironman uses a one-off ruleset for that match.

Typically, when you refer to a "Limited" gun, most people are going to assume USPSA Limited as its a national sport with dozens of local matches per weekend and dozens of major matches per year. Any gunsmith or company advertising a "Limited" gun is typically talking about USPSA.

For USPSA Limited, the guns are not even close to "factory" condition. External modifications, slide lightening, magwells, and complete custom builds are completely normal. The more "factory condition" division in USPSA would be Production. Basically the thing that takes a gun from "Limited" to "Open" is an optical sight, a compensator, and longer magazines (140mm for Limited vs 170mm for Open). Everything else can be pretty tricked out.

[Zeke013]

Thanks for the info -

So, I am getting into three gun. Ironman and my next event, NW Multigun, have similar rules - and based on the highlighted below, I am concerned I will get removed from this class based on a tricked out 2011 with no ports, etc., but a magwell. Any thoughts?

5.3.1 Firearms must be of a factory configuration. Prototype firearms are specifically prohibited. Internal

modifications are permitted providing they do not alter the external appearance of the firearm.

5.3.2 Handgun holsters must safely retain the handgun during vigorous movement. The holster material

must completely cover the trigger on all semiautomatic pistols. Revolver holsters must completely cover

the trigger and the cylinder. The belt upon which the handgun holster is attached must be worn at waist

level. Shoulder holsters and cross draw holsters are prohibited.

5.3.3 Handgun

5.3.3.1 Electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are

prohibited.

5.3.3.2 Magazines length may not exceed 170mm in the case of single column magazines, and

may not exceed 140mm in the case of staggered column magazines.

[Zeke013]

And just to be clear - I know I can ask the match organizers, but I don't want to make a decision based on a single match. Since the rules are similar in both these, I suspect they will be similar in future three gun matches too.

Just looking for insight from folks that have shot more matches.

Thanks.

[MGMorden]

Multi-gun is still kind of in its infancy. The problem is that there are several different competiting rulesets (and some matches using their own rulesets). USPSA actually has multi-gun rules. There's also IMGA and 3 Gun Nation rules. All have different divisions and requirements.

The problem in particular with the "Factory Condition Guns" bit is that the rule is overly simplistic and not well thought out. The STI 2011 Legend is technically a factory gun. Its has nearly all the same features as any custom build (and the things that would really make the difference are internal and so would still be allowed), but its a factory gun:

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-legend/

[SteveT-NV]

Thanks for the info -

So, I am getting into three gun. Ironman and my next event, NW Multigun, have similar rules - and based on the highlighted below, I am concerned I will get removed from this class based on a tricked out 2011 with no ports, etc., but a magwell. Any thoughts?

5.3.1 Firearms must be of a factory configuration. Prototype firearms are specifically prohibited. Internal

modifications are permitted providing they do not alter the external appearance of the firearm.

5.3.2 Handgun holsters must safely retain the handgun during vigorous movement. The holster material

must completely cover the trigger on all semiautomatic pistols. Revolver holsters must completely cover

the trigger and the cylinder. The belt upon which the handgun holster is attached must be worn at waist

level. Shoulder holsters and cross draw holsters are prohibited.

5.3.3 Handgun

5.3.3.1 Electronic sights, optical sights, extended sights, compensators or barrel porting are

prohibited.

5.3.3.2 Magazines length may not exceed 170mm in the case of single column magazines, and

may not exceed 140mm in the case of staggered column magazines.

I agree that the rules you quote are a bit confusing, but a Magwell or slide lightening will not put you in Open for most Multigun Matches. The Brazos limited gun you mention in your first post would not put you in Open Division. The USPSA Multigun Rules (http://uspsa.org/RifleShotgunMultigun%20Rules%201-1-2013final.pdf ) Appendix A2 pg 62 are bit easier to follow in that for Tactical and Limited Division it refers you to Limited pistol Rules.

Steve

[Zeke013]

Cool - thanks.

[Blaise1]

Magwells are fine, most STI's come from the factory with one already. The three No-No's for the Tactical divisions are Red Dot/ extended sights, Comps/ Weights, and over 140mm mags.

You shouldn't have any problem running a USPSA Limited legal pistol almost anywhere. Since the new rules change this year I've even seen Gas Pedals starting to show up.

[wgj3]

Not trying to hijack, but as we consider these questions...

What about the STI Trusight with the extended barrel-mounted front sight? No muzzle weight or comp...?

[frag316]

To the original poster--I'm biased, but I'd get with Predator Tactical and talk with them about your questions. They are the official pistol sponsor for the 3-gun Nation matches.

www.predatortactical.com

Multi-gun is still kind of in its infancy. The problem is that there are several different competiting rulesets (and some matches using their own rulesets). USPSA actually has multi-gun rules. There's also IMGA and 3 Gun Nation rules. All have different divisions and requirements.

I don't know that I'd say "infancy," but there are a multitude of rulesets, because there's no unifying body over all of the 3-/multi-gun organizations and matches. I got into an argument with a local (STL area) guy over the fact that he created a couple of divisions for his matches that are really mishmashes of existing divisions in other rulesets people already know (why reinvent the wheel?).

In general, USPSA Multigun rules tend to be more restrictive than do many of the "outlaw" or "independent" 3-gun rules, but YMMV.