You Be The RO: Gun Ready Condition

[Saffer]

The WSB stipulates gun is unloaded and holstered. The competitor comes to the line and loads his gun. What do you do? Before you answer, bear Rule 8.1 in mind, which describes the converse.

[motosapiens]

Assuming you said 'make ready', and the shooter didn't just randomly load for no reason, My first instinct would be to consider it just like any other start position item (such as hand position). You can't start them until they are in the competitor ready condition, which includes the handgun ready condition. If you do start the competitor, and they had their gun loaded, or their hands in the wrong position, it's on you, and the competitor reshoots (as per 8.2.2).

Rule 8.1 is irrelevant to this situation imho, because having an unloaded gun when its supposed to be loaded is a disadvantage, so correcting the competitor would be considered coaching. OTOH, having a loaded gun when the wsb says 'unloaded' would be an advantage, and also not the proper ready condition, so causing the competitor to assume the proper ready condition is sensible, at least in the absence of a very specific exception similar to the one in 8.1.

What do you think?

Edited June 12, 2013 by motosapiens

[Saffer]

My course of action has always been to not allow the competitor to start, because the Start Position was incorrect. But Start Position is defined as "The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the start signal", which says nothing about the Gun Ready Condition.

I have also used the logic that failing to load, a competitor disadvantages himself and therefore I do not intervene, besides it's stipulated in Rule 8.1. However, loading for an unloaded start, the competitor unfairly advantages himself, so I intervene. But this may be wrong, and I may be disadvantaging the other competitors by intervening at that point.

What about applying Rule 10.1.1?

Edited June 12, 2013 by Saffer

[motosapiens]

My course of action has always been to not allow the competitor to start, because the Start Position was incorrect. But Start Position is defined as "The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the start signal", which says nothing about the Gun Ready Condition.

I have also used the logic that failing to load, a competitor disadvantages himself and therefore I do not intervene, besides it's stipulated in Rule 8.1. However, loading for an unloaded start, the competitor unfairly advantages himself, so I intervene. But this may be wrong, and I may be disadvantaging the other competitors by intervening at that point.

What about applying Rule 10.1.1?

8.2.1 is very explicit that the handgun ready condition is a component of the competitor ready condition. If the handgun is not in the proper ready condition, you shouldn't start the competitor (unless it's the very specific exception in 8.1, where the competitor fails to chamber a round for a loaded start).

10.1.1 *should* not apply here (i think) because the competitor was never in the proper ready condition to be started. Read 8.2.1 again and tell me what you think. I just read it again, and I think that perhaps the reshoot does not apply to the gun ready condition, since it specifically refers to an 'incorrect start position' rather than an incorrect competitor ready status.

I'm starting to think that if I notice the improper start condition, make the competitor remedy it (just like with incorrect holster position, or hammer at half-cock on a cz). If I don't notice it, then a procedural, pending ruling by the RM, or subsequent clarification in this thread that I will remember for the rest of my life.

Your picture looks like mark from canada that worked at area 1 on stage 11-ish?

Edited June 12, 2013 by motosapiens

[Poppa Bear]

I would not start them. I would remind them that it is an unloaded start.

If the start is loaded and holstered I have yet to see the shooter fail to at least draw their gun when given the command to Make Ready. If they fail to insert a magazine or Barney up and fail to insert a full mag then they have at least made an effort to put the gun into the proper condition. In the case of loading up for an unloaded start they have gone past the approved ready condition and need to be corrected.

I have put together unloaded start stages and I have had at least one shooter if not more who out of habit have loaded up at Make Ready. Most catch it right away, some have to be reminded.

[CHA-LEE]

8.1.3 defines what an unloaded gun condition is. For unloaded starts its best to have some verbiage like "....gun is unloaded and holstered per rule 8.1.3". Adding this to the WSB makes it crystal clear what the gun condition requirement is and the rule that supports the requirement.

As an RO who has run into this more times than I can remember, my immediate response to the shooter after the make ready command is given and I see them putting a mag in the gun is "Its an unloaded start". This reminds them of the start condition requirements and they comply willingly. If they refuse to make ready with a legal unloaded gun condition I simply won't start them and ask them to unload and show clear so I can get onto the next shooter. If the shooter refuses to comply with the start position or gun ready condition requirements defined in the WSB then their only option is to not shoot the stage and take a DNF for the stage.

[Saffer]

Your picture looks like mark from canada that worked at area 1 on stage 11-ish?

It is

8.2.1 is very explicit that the handgun ready condition is a component of the competitor ready condition. If the handgun is not in the proper ready condition, you shouldn't start the competitor (unless it's the very specific exception in 8.1, where the competitor fails to chamber a round for a loaded start).

I'm not sure about "very explicit", but I tend to agree with you. However, it could go both ways.

I would not start them. I would remind them that it is an unloaded start.

If the start is loaded and holstered I have yet to see the shooter fail to at least draw their gun when given the command to Make Ready. If they fail to insert a magazine or Barney up and fail to insert a full mag then they have at least made an effort to put the gun into the proper condition. In the case of loading up for an unloaded start they have gone past the approved ready condition and need to be corrected.

I have put together unloaded start stages and I have had at least one shooter if not more who out of habit have loaded up at Make Ready. Most catch it right away, some have to be reminded.

Let me be clear. I have never been confronted by other competitors complaining that pointing out that a start is unloaded is unfair. However, this past weekend a fellow RO was confronted, which got me thinking. I think it would be unreasonable to apply Rule 10.1.1, but it doesn't matter what I think. What matters is how the rules are interpreted and implemented.

[Saffer]

8.1.3 defines what an unloaded gun condition is. For unloaded starts its best to have some verbiage like "....gun is unloaded and holstered per rule 8.1.3". Adding this to the WSB makes it crystal clear what the gun condition requirement is and the rule that supports the requirement.

As an RO who has run into this more times than I can remember, my immediate response to the shooter after the make ready command is given and I see them putting a mag in the gun is "Its an unloaded start". This reminds them of the start condition requirements and they comply willingly. If they refuse to make ready with a legal unloaded gun condition I simply won't start them and ask them to unload and show clear so I can get onto the next shooter. If the shooter refuses to comply with the start position or gun ready condition requirements defined in the WSB then their only option is to not shoot the stage and take a DNF for the stage.

I agree, and it's how I've always operated. But is this the correct procedure? Are we disadvantaging the other competitors? Why not allow the competitor to continue, given that it was crystal clear, and then penalise him as per Rule 10.1.1?

[CHA-LEE]

Your "Give them the choice of taking a procedural" logic does not work because, per the rules, we can not start the shooter until they have assumed the required start position and gun ready condition defined by the WSB. So we can't even get to the point of starting the stage until they are in compliance with the WSB.

[Nik Habicht]

10.1.1 in the USPSA doesn't allow for a penalty.....

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range

Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s

score sheet.

It's a description of the process -- I'm guessing you meant something else. If I were the RM, and the competitor challenged the penalties, I'd order a reshoot -- because he didn't start the stage the same way as everyone else....

I don't think I'd be overturned on arb....

[Saffer]

I think we're all on the same page, since we're all applying the rules the same way. I guess what I was looking for was a succinct explanation that clearly removed any doubt, and explained why. That nugget I've managed to glean from the feedback, thanks. Here's what I've gleaned.

Rule 10.1.1 applies to the WSB procedure, or the act AFTER the start signal, and therefore cannot be applied to actions prior to the start signal.

Rules 8.2.1 and 8.2.2 pertain to preparedness, and must be adhered to BEFORE the start signal. The reason we do not intervene on a loaded start, as per Rule 8.1, is because we allow for a LOWER level of preparedness. This also explains why we do intervene on an unloaded start; because we NEVER allow a HIGHER level of preparedness than specified in the WSB.

So there are two parts to the WSB, each with its own set of rules; PREPAREDNESS and PROCEDURE.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Saffer