223 chamber gauging issue

[tohm]

I know there are many topics on this but I wanted to start a fresh one. This started with me having issues with my reloaded rounds chambering in a new Stag 3G gun I bought. I had a Rock River I have shot for a couple of years. I had about two thousand rounds loaded in my Dillon 550 with the Dillon carbide die so I tried running them in the Stag. I ran across a couple of intermittent times when the round would not chamber to bolt lock (thinking my setup on my 550 got off and I missed it) plus I could not extract them without force. After reading the many post I decided to run all the rounds loaded through the L.E. Wilson 223 chamber gauge. I found a couple that troubled me (put them to the side, tried running them through the Stag and they all ran) but 99% seemed great. So several mentioned the EGW 223 chamber checker so I bought one from Dillon. All the heads do not drop all the way in they come up short just a tad. So I thought I would go through and load some new ones. Meantime I took the best I had to a match feeling pretty comfortable I shot 100 in practice and about round 42 one did not feed all the way in and stuck in the chamber tic toc tick toc and time was gone. Bellow are the pictures as I set up to load a new round (no primer or powder just to inspect the set up and set the sizer down further).

this is before sizing.

this is after sizing and trimming.

this is sized and checked with the EGW gauge.

this is seated and put a light crimp (no measurable diameter change but visual ring showing contact).

I will make another post with the other two pictures I am exceeding the file size.

[tohm]

These are the last two pictures showing the round as loaded checked in the gauges.

Bullet seated in L.E Wilson gauge.

This is in the EGW gauge

My question is this normal. I dropped a new manufactured round and it is bellow the gauge level and the bullet is a Montana Gold 55 gr and measures .224 to .2245 on my dial caliper.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Tom

[tohm]

Never mind i pulled the 55 gr and seated a Sierra 69gr and it dropped in. pulled the SMK 69 and seated another MG 55 gr from another lot and same issue I guess the MG's are a little bigger. I will check next week with a Mic instead of a dial caliper to compare the two.

[Flatland Shooter]

Another thread indicates a bad batch of 55 gr FMJ came out of Montana Gold. That thread did not indicate any were not sized properly, but it might be part of their problem.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174006&hl=+montana%20+gold

Bill

[tohm]

The 1st box i was loading out of was about 2 years old the second box was from last fall. I haven't shot any of those.

[BlueOvalBandit]

Try some dykem or a sharpie and color the neck upward including the bullet on a dummy cartridge made to the same spec (or a real problem one in a safe area). Insert it into the chamber by hand and let the bolt fly home, then extract and look for contact marks which will rub the dykem or sharpie off.

[Jaxshooter]

What sizing die are you using? I load all my .223 ammo with a small base die and it chambers in all 8 of my ARs without a problem.

[tohm]

I am using the Dillon carbide small base 223 die.

[tohm]

Bullet diameters

Since I was using a dial caliper I wanted to check this with a good Starrett Mic so could get a accurate diameter. The MG is .2247 OD, and the Sierra is .2245 OD. Only 2/10's bigger. Hard to believe the gauge is that tight.

I will try marking up a round (dykem) and forcing the issue (In my rifle). I am using rounds with no powder or primer's so it should not be an issue.

The Chamber gauge from EGW is aluminum so not sure if i can force it without screwing up one of the bores?

Anyone know what the tolerance is (min - max) is on bullet diameters for the 223's?

[Steve RA]

Could be the brass, some brands are thicker than others.

[tohm]

I tried it with RP, LC and FC brass all have the same issue. I assume the chamber gauge is just tight around the neck and my rifle must be the same? I will try blueing tonight

[tohm]

Last post. I tried using blueing and that didn't show anything, then sharpie and that didn't show anything i can tap them in with a screwdriver handle and then punch them out and they leave no marks, Also tried them in the rifle chamber and the bolt closed and drove it home. It extracted fine. I guess the chamber gauge is just size on size and not be of much help to determine any issues.

[Dirty Rod]

I have the same issue with my EGW gauge. Sized cases fit fine but about half of my complete rounds stop short but will go in if I push but will stick and Ill have to push them out. The rounds fit fine in my Dillon gauge and are nowhere close to hitting the lands in any of my rifles. I'm using a 55gr bullet and have tried 3 different brands with the same result. I talked to the guys down at EGW but didn't get to a resolution.

My next step was to try some different OALs but I'm if I go much shorter I will be past the cannelure. I was going to try coloring up the bullet to see if the ogive is making contact but it looks like thats been done. I would also think that a 55gr bullet would have plenty of room.

[tohm]

That seems to be the issue, I pushed the bullet back until it would seat in the gauge and the overall length was ~.225" with the MG 55 that is why the Sierra went in because it is a different shape bullet. I trim my case to 1.750" and then seat the MG 55's to 2.260" OAL which is the Speer manual Max. In the bullet section (Speer Manual) it has the COAL as 2.215 for the 55gr SP/cann which appears to be like the MG bullet with the cannelure. So do i cut back my OAL from 2.260? Do I cut back my trim length to line up the cannelure or just push the bullet in and forget the cannelure?

[Steve RA]

I'd just seat it and forget the cannelure. This assumes you have plenty of neck tension on the bullet.

[tohm]

I emailed Montana Gold and asked them what their recommended specs are for this bullet (I assume it was designed to something) they have no specs on their web site. I assume we are looking for .002 to .003" and no crimp?

[CocoBolo]

The picture of the Le Wilson with the brass being slighlty down into the hole is the ticket. Drop checking .223 is no gurantee that the round will but run from the last 4000 I have done the LE Wilson picture looks right.

The real test is to dry cycle some thru the gun.

Anything that sticks up gets put in the practice bucket. Last time I took the practice bucket out, my suspecions were confirmed they didn't eject.

I also use the small base dies, but I drop check after sizing and toss the ones that don't drop like the Le Wilson Picture, then after loading they get drop checked again, and in every batch I dry cycle some.

They say it is the Wylde chamder, well it drives me Wild, when you have to slam the gun on the ground to clear it.

Edited May 22, 2013 by CocoBolo

[tohm]

It seems like if i trim the neck back to about 1.740" and run an OAL of 2.220 to 2.215" and i can easily push (with finger pressure) the round in the EGW gauge. It doesn't drop in but it does slide in. I tried contacting Montana Gold to ask they what the OAL length should be and have heard nothing back from them. Does anyone have an OAL with the Montana Gold 55 gr?

[CocoBolo]

It seems like if i trim the neck back to about 1.740" and run an OAL of 2.220 to 2.215" and i can easily push (with finger pressure) the round in the EGW gauge. It doesn't drop in but it does slide in. I tried contacting Montana Gold to ask they what the OAL length should be and have heard nothing back from them. Does anyone have an OAL with the Montana Gold 55 gr?

The standard trim length is 1.750, you will find that in just about every reloading manual. The max case length is 1.760. If I have a bullet with a cannalure I set the bullet so that a small amount of the cannalure is showing. I have not loaded any montana gold, but lots of Hornady FMJBT. I'm running everthing without a cannalure at about 2.240.

Anything I have to push into the drop check gets tossed in the mistake bucket for those boring witnter nights you spend with the hammer bullet puller.

With the Wilson Drop check if I see any brass stick up when looking down the center grove it goes in the practice bucket, for exactly the reason you mentioned, it sticks in the chamber and even worse it almost goes into battery and the the hammer drops and click.

I think it has a lot to do with the crispness of the corners, as I can put the round in backwards and it will sink most of the way into the chamber check. I painted them with dykem and ran them thru the gun, and didn't get a definitive marking. Being anal on the drop check has paid off.

Edited May 22, 2013 by CocoBolo

[tohm]

I have learned a lot about my 223 reloads and clearing jams on the clock. I believe the issue is resolved and it was not the reloads but the shape of the Montana Gold bullets and my Stag 3g feed ramps.

A couple of weeks ago i went to another match had perfect case gauged rounds and feeding issues on the first stage. I had taken a box of factory ammo (same 55 grain) and they ran fine to finish so when i came home i tried to find out what was different and by watching them feed up the ramp i notice the the Montan Golds had a gouge on them the Federals didn't so i checked it out and the Montana Golds were hitting some sharp edges on the feed ramp after about 30 seconds with a Dremel life was good. Bullets cycled through without any marks.

I shot another match this weekend and no issues rifle ran great.