What Constitutes a new Shooting Position?

[beltjones]

Let's look at this from the other side of the coin. Can any of those targets, behind the wall, be engaged from other positions where the rounds don't have to go through the port? If not, I'd submit that the subject set-up is one location/view.

I don't think you can define it that way. There are stages where you have to shoot every round through a single port, but you as you move laterally through the stage you see different targets through the port. By your definition if I'm sending rounds through the same port - even if I move 20' from the original shooting location - it's one location/view.

[justaute]

My response is singularly constructed based on the given illustration.

Let's look at this from the other side of the coin. Can any of those targets, behind the wall, be engaged from other positions where the rounds don't have to go through the port? If not, I'd submit that the subject set-up is one location/view.

I don't think you can define it that way. There are stages where you have to shoot every round through a single port, but you as you move laterally through the stage you see different targets through the port. By your definition if I'm sending rounds through the same port - even if I move 20' from the original shooting location - it's one location/view.

Edited May 16, 2013 by justaute

[wgj3]

Still not addressing OP's actual question...

What constitutes a 2nd position?

Ive been thinking ab it for a bit now, seems that any movement would constitute a change in position.

[Yardbird]

Are 10 wide open targets shot from a 4x4 box legal because I can take a step left or right and shoot a couple from a different postion? If position changes with one step then this is a legal stage? Because I'm not required to remain motionless while shooting all the targets?

[justaute]

Also, I don't really agreed with the "20'" example. Where one chooses to shoot the target does not necessarily create an incremental "location/view".

Scenario: Similar to the subject illustration, but place 5 targets, side by side, behind the wall/port; the only way to engage those targets -- each requires two shots -- is through the port. When the shooter is 10' away from the port, say perpendicularly facing the wall, only 3 of the 5 targets are visible; however, when the shooter is 2' from the port, all 5 targets become visible. How many locations/views are there? I'd say one.

Of course, one can argue that the USPSA rule language is not adequately defined. Some amount of inference is certainly at play.

Let's look at this from the other side of the coin. Can any of those targets, behind the wall, be engaged from other positions where the rounds don't have to go through the port? If not, I'd submit that the subject set-up is one location/view.

I don't think you can define it that way. There are stages where you have to shoot every round through a single port, but you as you move laterally through the stage you see different targets through the port. By your definition if I'm sending rounds through the same port - even if I move 20' from the original shooting location - it's one location/view.

Edited May 16, 2013 by justaute

[bikerburgess]

My interpretation of 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 is always in the most restrictive sense. Am I forced to change my view OR my position to engage the targets through the port? If the answer is no then it is one position or view.

how do you support that with the rules?

it sounds like you are inserting the word allow in place of require

[Poppa Bear]

I would not even go that far. CAN I see all 8 targets from one position? Yes, then one view. No, two or more views.

[remoandiris]

But the port is still one view. I did not say the stage was illegal with the new target. I said the port is still one view, hence 1 position.

So what? I can see at least 4 targets from the Xs. That is one view, hence one position. I can move two steps to the right and STILL see targets thru the port, hence a second position. I can go all the way to the front and put the muzzle thru the port and engage all of the targets from there, hence a 3rd position. But I don't have to and the rules/COF do NOT prevent or require it. So, there is NOT only 1 position to engage the targets thru the port.

Edited May 16, 2013 by remoandiris

[bikerburgess]

how about this all shots will have to be through the gap between the walls but you would have to move from one end of the shooting area to the other to engage all the targets.

Mike

[bikerburgess]

I would not even go that far. CAN I see all 8 targets from one position? Yes, then one view. No, two or more views.

please site supporting rule

[38SuperDub]

I saw Troy was reading this thread earlier - I'm really honest as to how NROI and he defines a shooting position. Not trying to stir the pot but truly confused. I have confused MYSELF as to what constitutes a shooting position.

[Poppa Bear]

Based on the original stage drawing 1.2.1.2 and 3 come into play with the requirement that ALL targets can NOT be available from one position. Adding the lone target to the outside took care of that requirement, but we still have the issue of one position or two through the port. The stage is now legal but it is still one view if I can see all 8 headshots from one position.

[beltjones]

Based on the original stage drawing 1.2.1.2 and 3 come into play with the requirement that ALL targets can NOT be available from one position. Adding the lone target to the outside took care of that requirement, but we still have the issue of one position or two through the port. The stage is now legal but it is still one view if I can see all 8 headshots from one position.

Yes, you can see all 8 targets from one view. But are you REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 scored shots from that location? I strongly doubt you can convince me that you are REQUIRED to shoot more than 8 rounds from that location.

[38SuperDub]

I never gave a dang about the legality of the stage. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER

So PLEASE lose that argument.

The question - 1 position or 2?

So here is the other question - someone said that its 2 positions based on the 2nd stage drawing. You can shoot some from the x on the back left and some at the port. Remove the left target by itself and leave the 8 targets in the port - starting position is still on X's - is it still 2 positions?

[bikerburgess]

Based on the original stage drawing 1.2.1.2 and 3 come into play with the requirement that ALL targets can NOT be available from one position. Adding the lone target to the outside took care of that requirement, but we still have the issue of one position or two through the port. The stage is now legal but it is still one view if I can see all 8 headshots from one position.

yes one view but there are multiple locations you can take that view and only in one location are you able to see all 8 head shots and there is no requirement that you go there.

[Strick]

If you use the logic that all the stage has to offer is the ability to move a step to comply with "no single view" then if you do away with the wall and port the stage is still legal.

1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3 state "from one location OR view". It does not say anything about a position and it says location or view. The location in this stage is inside the fault line and shooting through the port. Sure you can have multiple views but you are still in the same location.

[38SuperDub]

Not true. Read the glossary definition of location.

Based on your definition every stage has 1 location "inside the fault lines"

[Strick]

We are not talking about every stage, we are talking about this stage.

Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .A geographical place within a course of fire

That is from the glossary, it doesn't state anything about the position from which the targets are engaged. The only location in that stage to engage all those targets is within those fault lines trough the port.

[Poppa Bear]

I would grudgingly call it two positions, but still one view if I can see everything through the port without having to move. Adjust any part so that all 8 are not visible from one location and you would not get any argument from me.

[38SuperDub]

It has to be at least two.

You have the START POSITION where you can see some targets. And then the port POSITION.

[Strick]

It has to be at least two.

You have the START POSITION where you can see some targets. And then the port POSITION.

Even if true they are in the same location......which is what is mentioned in 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3, it never mentions position so that is meaningless.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Strick

[Croomrider]

I agree with Poppa Bear. If all of the shots can be taken from one spot, it is one position. Being ABLE to move a little and still see some targets does not make it two positions. The total number of "positions" on a stage should be determined by the fewest positions that ALL targets CAN be engaged. Not by the most positions you can find and still still see a target!

Mike

[EEH]

A new shooting position== movement== taking more than one step in any direction,or changing body position..

[Poppa Bear]

I agree with Poppa Bear. If all of the shots can be taken from one spot, it is one position. Being ABLE to move a little and still see some targets does not make it two positions. The total number of "positions" on a stage should be determined by the fewest positions that ALL targets CAN be engaged. Not by the most positions you can find and still still see a target!Mike

Nicely put Croomrider. The fewest positions required to engage all targets.

[38SuperDub]

Unfortunately that's not how it works. If you can take one shot 50 yards to a target and engage the same target in a 10 shot array it's two positions.