PractiScore vs EzWinScore and classifiers

[CHA-LEE]

I need some help. We setup the stages on the Nook in PractiScore. We click the "classifier" check box when setting up the classifier stage. The classifier stage looks good/valid in PractiScore. When we upload the stages to EZWinScore it does not recognize the classifier stage as a classifier. It thinks its a normal stage.

Is there a special way that the classifier stage needs to be created in PractiScore for it to show up correctly in EzWinScore???

[jcwren]

Currently, the classifier switch in Practiscore does nothing useful, at least as far as EZWS is concerned. All you can do is import your stages into EzWinScore, then go edit the stages that are classifiers, select 'Yes' for classifier, select the classifier number, and make sure the total points are the same afterwards. This is not a bug in PS, it's a limitation in the legacy Palm interface that EZWS uses to import/export from/to external programs.

Your real joy starts if stages in EzWinScore don't match the stages in Practiscore. EZWS checks the scores import file against the stages, and gets very, very angry if they don't match.

[CHA-LEE]

The "not matching" situation is what we are running into. When we attempt to edit the stage in EzWinScore I think it considers it a "new" stage and it will not apply the uploaded PractiScore scores to it. We are ending up with a situation where we have to manually input the classifier stage scores into EzWinScore after the stage is edited to match a classifier.

We didn't have this problem before when we would create the stages in EzWinScore then use the EzWin to PractiScore utility to convert the data into something that PractiScore could use. But since upgrading to 1.0.17 that stage conversion process does not work properly any more. Do you know if the conversion utility works properly with PractiScore 1.1.1 or 1.1.2?

[Too_Slow]

The only time that I had that problem is when I forgot to set the scoring type to Virginia Count when I made the stages in Practiscore. Luckily I caught it before getting to far along.

Brian

Edited March 27, 2013 by Too_Slow

[wgnoyes]

I never tried 1.0.17 or .16 as they revealed problems almost immediately after being released. I've been running .12 since January and only just recently upgraded to .15, which Chris has used successfully at his matches. That's my old data processing experience dating back to 1977. I let everyone else bleed first to determine the latest GOOD android release of PS.

My match flow is that people register ahead of time in shootnsccoreit. Then when online closes the night before the match, I take the ezws export from shootnscoreit and run it through Chris' SSI2EZWS pre-processor and then take that and create a new ezws match from that on my laptop. That laptop comes to the range the next day for walkup registrations. (Ezws' squadding facility is far superior to anything available in PS, sorry but it just is!). Once registration FINALLY closes, I run Chris' ezws2ps utility to create a ready-to-use practiscore .psc match file and load that to the master iPad. From there I distribute to the nooks, hand them out and we go shoot.

Coming back over after having synched everything back to the master ipad (which goes on all day), I use standard practiscore export features to email the match registration and match stages & scores to myself. I then create a new totally empty ezws match file, import the stages, change the classifier stage(s) to actual classifiers RIGHT THEN -- NOT LATER, then import registrations and finally the scores. Re-do the DQ's, and you're done and now you have the official match file. You have to do that IN ORDER; if you import scores and then try to mark a stage as a classifier, he'll whack all the existing scores for that stage. If you forget and don't mark the stage as a classifier from within ezws, he won't upload it AS A CLASSIFIER to USPSA and your competitors won't get their classification updates and your club won't get the activity credits.

Edited March 27, 2013 by wgnoyes

[CHA-LEE]

Here is the basic process that we are using.

We are creating the stages on the Nook in PractiScore. Then we do all of the Registration in EzWinScore. We export the registration and put it on the master nook then use that (Stages & Registration) to sync onto all of the scoring nooks. When the match is finished we sync all scoring nooks to the Master nook. Then use the PractiScore Exporter Utility on the PC to pull the Stages, Registration, and Scores from the Master nook up to the PC. Then from EzWinScore we import the stages then scores.

This is essentially the same process we used for the Palm Pilot / Stage Score solution we were using.

I think where we are messing up is when we create the stages in the Nook. We have been naming the classifier stage its actual name (El Presidente) instead of only naming it the classifier number (09-11). Talking to other local clubs that still use the Palm Pilot / Stage Score solution giving the classifier stage name ONLY the number is a requirement for it to show up properly as a Classifier in EzWinScore. I am going to test this out this week to see how it works out.

Alternately I am going to see if we can edit the classifier stage after its uploaded from the master nook and before the actual scores are uploaded. It seems funky that you would have to do that, but its worth a try if changing the name to the actual classifier number does not solve the issue.

[euxx]

CHA-LEE, what PS version are you running? Is there anything I need to look at at PS side? Not sure about conversion tools other folks developed and what kind of issues are there with new PS versions.

[CHA-LEE]

Currently we are using 1.0.17. I was going to upgrade to 1.1.2 to see if it makes any difference.

[euxx]

Currently we are using 1.0.17. I was going to upgrade to 1.1.2 to see if it makes any difference.

I am still not certain what the problem is... I don't recall any changes between those versions in the stage editing or export/import to ezws.

BTW, after importing stages to PS, do you see classifier checkbox and classifier id on stage editing screen?

Could you also remind me what "EzWin to PractiScore utility" you're referred to?

[wgnoyes]

http://www.tinymicros.com/wiki/ezws2ps

[euxx]

Thanks. So, any idea how it doesn't work with new version? What are the symptoms? If someone could send me exported psc file I can take a look and compare how it is imported between different versions of PractiScore.

BTW, some info on that page is outdated. E.g. I am pretty sure issue with loading psc file from web site has been fixed in 1.0.15 version. Please update.

Edited March 28, 2013 by euxx

[wgnoyes]

1.1.2? Don't know. The last match I ran was with 1.0.12, and I've since updated to 1.0.15.

But at any rate, I was never trying to bring a generated .psc file directly into an android version of practiscore. That just simply didn't work, not the way I was doing it. (Local web server on the laptop with a page containing a link to the generated .psc file. Running a browser on the android [which was always broken] wouldn't work and Chris told me when it did, the box didn't know what to do with the file.)

Instead I'd open up the webpage on an iPad with safari, click on the link, and the match would be brought into practiscore(iOS) 1.5.8. Then from there, I'd distribute to the nooks.

[euxx]

Bill, I've read trough your procedure more than once and personally I think it has way too many steps. Much more then most people could handle and certainly not something to brag about.

It shouldn't be more complicated than exporting to PS all match information (including squadding) directly from the match registration system, so you can immediately start scoring right after that or after syncing all devices.

[wgnoyes]

You have to register walkups into a laptop at the range, because practiscore's squadding selection facility is "certainly not something to brag about", and I wouldn't wish trying to register people directly into a nook on anybody. Also the master has to be an iOS device, because a master android device still cannot reach out and simply find all the other devices on the wireless network (I think there's still a problem ticket open for that on Mantis), and I don't want to have to keep a paper list of which stage has which device and what it's corresponding sync code is that I have to tap in. So as you can see, shootnscoreit -> ezws -> iOS master -> nooks makes sense owing to android software and hardware limitations and it works.

[jcwren]

I personally haven't tried anything beyond 1.0.15, since subsequent releases had issues that made me hesitant to risk a match without some prior testing. I can try and run it through my usual work-flow process and see if anything turns up, but unless something in the JSON layout changed, it ought not to be broken.

Eugene, out of curiosity, what's the largest match *you've personally* run on PS, where you had to enter shooters, squad them, etc?

[euxx]

JSON had changed around version 1.0.15 to include fields required for IDPA. Though new fields are optional.

Anyhow, like I said, we could really use our users input to improve PS stability between releases. Some of the things you guys do, is not easy to replicate.

PS: for the largest match, I've entered about 30 competitors on Nook. Knowing how its screen works makes typing on it for me no different from any other tablet...

PPS: device discovery on Android is in my todo list. Hopefully soon

PPPS: for the squadding, I still believe that it should be done before match and competitors can do most of it themselves. But I do agree that squadding need to be improved in PS.

[wgnoyes]

Squadding is done before the match in shootnscoreit, but of course the walkups haven't done this.

If I were really going to register walkup's on a tablet, that would still be an iPad, with a bluetooth REAL keyboard connected (which I've done before). I hate trying to tap/type on a screen-based virtual keyboard.

Do you know (or have) a copy of ezwinscore? USPSA's scoring program has a drag/drop squadding window that just knocks everything else on its butt. If it would help stimulate ideas for a similar practiscore-based facility, I can get you a copy of ezwinscore and a few match files for you to play with.

Edited March 28, 2013 by wgnoyes

[jcwren]

30 shooters is a small match, by my standards. The NOOK is adequate for that, as long as you don't have too many new shooters to enter. A larger Android tablet helps.

Our monthly matches typically run 50 to 115 shooters, depending on proximity to major matches and weather.

We have shooters register and pre-squad in Shoot'n Score It. This allows them to shoot with their buddies, or more importantly, NOT squad with their arch-nemeses (some times it more like a kindergarten than a shooting match...).

Then you have your walk-ups (we have several shooters who actually don't own PCs, the usual "oh, it's too much trouble" types, the ones who decide at the last minute to shoot the match, and the ones who aren't yet aware you can pre-register), and you have your pre-register no-shows.

The issue with this is that with out proper squad management, you'll have highly unbalanced squads. Plus we need to make sure each squad has people who are qualified both to RO and to score.

Because PS has no squad overview (even a simple list indicating how many shooters are on each squad), EzWinScore fills this gap nicely. It actually does this part *really* well. You have a nice top-view of shooters per squad, and you can expand the list to see what shooters are in which squad, and move them around. Plus we have the added benefit of being able to add new shooters to the database (remember that PS doesn't let you export the registration database, so if you lose your device, bye-bye database!), and from there I can always export the masternames.db out to another PS device, should I need to.

So to some extent, yes, competitors can squad themselves. But if you want to have a match that runs smoothly, with squads that don't bunch up a squad of 20 shooters behind the 10 person squad on the long stage, and you don't want fist-fights breaking out because two competitors can't stand each other, or because Billy-Bob can't shoot with Fannie-Mae, you HAVE to manage this.

[jcwren]

Anyhow, like I said, we could really use our users input to improve PS stability between releases. Some of the things you guys do, is not easy to replicate.

Dude... Have you checked the bug list lately? There's a metric-assload of feedback about usability and issues. I've personally filed 57 issues, of which 47 remain 'new' or 'assigned'.

Edited March 28, 2013 by jcwren

[euxx]

Dude... Have you checked the bug list lately? There's a metric-assload of feedback about usability and issues. I've personally filed 57 issues, of which 47 remain 'new' or 'assigned'.

You are right. Though I don't think there are any severe show-stopper issues in that list (at least not for Android app).

Anyhow, the bug report cleanup is a long overdue. I've marked some old ones as resolved and re-assigned unassigned issues to ios developer who is also coordinating work between platforms. Some of the issues we can't address quickly because we have to coordinate and for some decisions has to be made. Will have to remember to dedicate time for some of the high priority issues, besides an ongoing work.

Edited March 28, 2013 by euxx

[jcwren]

Dude... Have you checked the bug list lately? There's a metric-assload of feedback about usability and issues. I've personally filed 57 issues, of which 47 remain 'new' or 'assigned'.

You are right. Though I don't think there are any severe show-stopper issues in that list (at least not for Android app).

Anyhow, the bug report cleanup is a long overdue. I've marked some old ones as resolved and re-assigned unassigned issues to ios developer who is also coordinating work between platforms. Some of the issues we can't address quickly because we have to coordinate and for some decisions has to be made. Will have to remember to dedicate time for some of the high priority issues, besides an ongoing work.

I was quite pleased to see a bunch of Mantis notifications show up in my email

[CHA-LEE]

Well, I was able to do some testing with this last night. The only way we could get it to work properly was to import the stages, then edit the classifier stage in EzWinScore to make it a valid Classifier. Then import the scores. Doing it in that way worked every time properly.

We tried setting up the classifier stage with many different Names or classifier ID but it would never show up in EzWinScore as a valid classifier.

Why is this not working the way it should when going from PractiScore up to EzWinScore?

[jcwren]

It's like I said before. This is because of the legacy Palm interface. The information transferred is very limited, and among the many things that don't move back and forth is whether it's a classifier or not.

You can create all the stages on Practiscore. Then you import the stages into EzWinScore, go to the stages you've defined as classifiers, select the 'Classifier' drop-down and change it to 'Yes', select the classifier number, import your shooters, then import scores. The only requirement is that the scoring type and target counts for the stage you define in Practiscore match what the actual classifier configuration is.

[CHA-LEE]

It's like I said before. This is because of the legacy Palm interface. The information transferred is very limited, and among the many things that don't move back and forth is whether it's a classifier or not.

You can create all the stages on Practiscore. Then you import the stages into EzWinScore, go to the stages you've defined as classifiers, select the 'Classifier' drop-down and change it to 'Yes', select the classifier number, import your shooters, then import scores. The only requirement is that the scoring type and target counts for the stage you define in Practiscore match what the actual classifier configuration is.

That is basically what we are doing now from our testing last night.

[wgnoyes]

Well, I was able to do some testing with this last night. The only way we could get it to work properly was to import the stages, then edit the classifier stage in EzWinScore to make it a valid Classifier. Then import the scores. Doing it in that way worked every time properly.

...

That's exactly what I do, as I wrote back on Mar 27th. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=171721entry1901120, 3rd paragraph.

Edited March 30, 2013 by wgnoyes