Shotgun and rifle troubles

[rtr]

I shoot maybe 6-8 3-gun matches a year (actually they are usually just rifle and shotgun). I suffer from 2 problems, not having a good sense of zero, holdovers, etc. on my rifle (and not great technique either), and not being able to load my shotgun very fast (remmy 1100cm with ez loader).

I am priviliged to regularly shoot with Eddie Rhoades, sometimes Kurt Miller and other good 3 gunners, so I know the technique for weak hand loading, I just need to practice. I usually get my butt spanked by everyone in shotgun, however this weekend we had 3 shotgun stages that did not require loading (7 rounds or so), I screwed one of them up bigtime and had to reload, but the other 2 I didn't screw up and did very well (2nd on one, 3rd on the other).

So my question is just shooting a shotgun, how hard is it really? As compared to say shooting a pistol. The stages I did well on were all steel and clay birds (some of them flying), all from less than 15 yards.

My second question, regarding rifle is I noticed that I was gripping very hard with my right hand, which presumably makes for bad trigger control and bad shots. So any thoughts, techniques, exercises etc. to improve this? thanks.

[Patrick Sweeney]

On rifle, I learned "old school" with a Garand. Elbow out and a hard hold, tight enough that you could (and I could) shoot it with just your right hand. When I switched to an AR I had a hard time until I learned to relax my grip while making it a mechanical lever against the gun. I get my hand as high and hard into the gun as I can, but keep it relaxed. The left does the gross work of aiming, the body the fine work. Until I developed that, I was always down the list on the LRPF at Second Chance. After, I moved into the "loot zone."

For shotguns, you must learn to reposition your body against recoil. If you do not, the gun will push you back on each shot, you'll stand more and more vertical, and you'll quickly be missing high. Lean in, and let your body move back to firing position (just like an artillery hydraulics) as you acquire the next target.

Unlike Bill Drills, I found the best method to learn these was individual shots on individual targets like plate racks.

[rhino]

If you zero your AR at 50 yards, you probably don't need to worry about holdover/under unless you're less than 25 yards or more than 250. That's assuming your sights or scope are at the same height as standard AR sights, however.

In terms of grip, I choose to do most of my gripping with my support hand, which I place on the magwell. I pull into my shoulder and try to keep my right hand relaxed to work the trigger.

[rtr]

Thanks for the info guys.

We shoot from 10 yards to 425 yards, I'm using a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x scope. Any ideas on a zero?

[Neil Beverley]

For shotgun I would advise you to aim low unless there is a specific reason for you not to. Unless you are really comfortable with your point of aim and achieve your hits most every time then it adds in a safety margin. Over the years I've analysed a lot of misses and mostly they are high. By shooting low you help to compensate.

Also read the target array. There can be sucker traps. e.g. If you shooot left to right and there are (say) 6 targets with the first 3 or 4 climbing (in presentation) from left to right and then the next one drops down so the plane it's on is below the others then that can be the sucker target and you will see shooters missing that one in the array more than the others. It is so predictable that a course designer can build in the problem if he is of such a mind.

Indeed on any SG stage there can be a problem target or two. Make sure you have indentified them and have the defeat of them in your mind before you shoot. This may just be the positioning, especially if they are screwed around at an acute angle. Focus on being in position for the difficult target. The ones that start off in plain view remain in plain view but often seem to take precedence in shooters minds, which in my opinion is the wrong priority.

[Religious Shooter]

425! Man that's abnormal.

The biggest weakpoint (IMHO) of the Accupoint is the reticle's black post. As you probably have experienced that vertical post covers up a lot of the target when you have to hold over the target at longer distances.

So when I shoot a stage with the Accupoint I use the range card on my gun and set the elevation according to the stage --- I set the elevation so I don't have to hold over any target.

This usually means I set it up to the farthest target. For that far target I have a POA/POI sight picture. For all the other (closer) targets I hold a little low or use a 6 o'clock hold.

What's cool about the Accupoint is that the turrets have #'s on them (or at least mine does). Other scopes only have hash marks.

So in my case a 50 yard zero with 55's is coincidentally "0" on the elevation turret. With my ballistic software a 55 grain bullet with BC .243 and 3100 fps is predicted to have this trajectory.

50 yards ... 0

100 yards ... +1.7"

200 yards ... +1.3"

300 yards ... -5.6"

400 yards ... -22"

So say I want to know at what elevation is the gun zeroed at 300 yards. I can either go out there and shoot and find out or use the predicted trajectory and get a close answer.

The Accupoint has ~1/4 MOA adjustments. This means that at 300 yards each click moves the POI (300 yards / 100 yards x .25") = 3 x .25" = .75".

At 300 yards the bullet is at -5.6" from the POA. So I need to click it up 5.6"/.75"=~7 clicks to zero it at 300 (with a starting zero of 50 yards).

So with the elevation turret at "0" the guns is zeroed at 50. I need to move it up 7 clicks to zero it at 300. So I would set the knob to "1.75" --- from"0" through .25, .5, .75, 1, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 (seven clicks).

So that's the cool thing with having #'s on the turrets.

If I have a 0-200 yards stage I set it to "0" (50-yard zero). If I have a 0-300 yard stage I set it to "1.75" (300-yard zero). Etc...

[rhino]

If you don't want to fiddle with nobs and such, the 50 yard gives you the most useful, flattest trajectory over the widest range.

[kellyn]

You can also zero at 300 and know the hold UNDERs. My best advice is to pick a zero (the 50/250 or the 300) and shoot groups at the various distances. That way you KNOW where to hold. Computers are nice but they are no substitute for lead through paper. The Trijicon 1-4X is a good scope but it's reticle is weak when shooting past 300.

I have to disagree with Rhino about the magwell hold. It may be hold favored by some in the tactical crowd but it makes for much slower transitions between targets.

I would rather shoot a pistol against Kurt than a shotgun anyday. Shotgun should be the easiest of the three but for some reason it's where I am weakest. But when you think about it there is a lot going on: multiple types of ammo, massive time spent reloading, more recoil, the temptation to use poor sight pictures since you have a cone of shot, different chokes, difficulty in knocking down far steel, etc, etc.

[rhino]

I have to disagree with Rhino about the magwell hold. It may be hold favored by some in the tactical crowd but it makes for much slower transitions between targets.

Don't forget that I shoot a sub-six pound carbine with a 16 inch barrel and no compensator. I need to pull back on it to keep it from moving a LOT instead of moving a little.

If I had a full length JP with a fancy comp, adjustable gas system, lightweight carrier, etc., it would make a lot more sense to hold differently.

[PacMan]

Sorry I missed last weekend's 2 guns in Pueblo, it's the only game in town with a 400 yard rifle range. Depending on what you're shooting, knowing ballistic of the particular bullet is absolutely a must. For example, a standard 3200 fps 55 gr will drop 16" or so at 400 if the rifle is zeroed at 250 yds. I've tried to tinker with the 300 yds zero for use with the Accupoint, but found that "holding under" (4" at 200) is a little tough to do so I'm back to 250 zero. Use the bottom of the triangle for aiming point should work at that 400 yds 20" plate.

rtr, look me up next month at the AK vs. AR match, may be I can help with hints on rifle stuff. I'm the other Asian ! Shotgun wise, I can't help ya since I $uck at it too.

Kellyn, you're invited to join us for the "GOOD vs. EVIL" match that the boys in Pueblo are cooking up for October. You're more than welcomed to use our AKs

[kellyn]

Don't listen to Pacman. You'll end up with an AK with a Leupold CQT on it! Good v. Evil match sounds fun. Do the AK shooters have to wear headscarves or black pajamas? Do they have to kick a dog before starting a stage? Jimmy ought to win then.

Rhino, you can control a 16 by holding on to the handguard. Luke, let go (of the handguard) and use the Force.

I would also consider the scope adjustment model proposed by religious Shooter. If you know you zeros, you can quickly crank the correction into a scope to deal with those pesky plates. A bit slower on the front end but you're more likely to get hits that by guessing with holdovers through a reticle.

[uscbigdawg]

My 50 yard zero hits again around 225. For 425, hold a tick high and you're good to go.

Rich

[rhino]

Rhino, you can control a 16 by holding on to the handguard. Luke, let go (of the handguard) and use the Force.

I trust only the Schwartz! The Force only works with a good comp and a few more pounds of gun! I'm too tiny and delicate to do things the way the manly men do anyway.

I used to shoot with the same hold I used for my shotgun with my finger pointed at the target. When I tried holding onto the magwell, I got better results all around. Oddly, I do better with my shotgun when holding close to the receiver as well ... but I am both a girly man and a mutant.

[rtr]

Just a little update.

Had the opportunity to shoot the AR some more at various distances. Tom Freeman helped me mark a piece of tape on the elevation knob so I now have zeroes for 200, 300, and 400 yards, so I can dial in target easy, much easier to hit targets at known distances now.