AWB expiration and Shotgun Congiguration

[racine]

I've been researching this question for the last few hours and can't find any info on the ATF page on what relates to whether I can add a pistol grip stock to my post ban 1100. I bought what I was told was a preban 1100 and added a pistol grip stock due to a torn rotator cuff. I had to take it off after checking and finding it was a post ban gun. Current configuration is 8 round tube, rifle stock for Lim class. Thanks in advance for any and all help...

racine

[rhino]

You can do whatever you want within the rules of the match. The AWB rules no longer exist.

[Carlos]

Rhino nailed it. Any shotgun out there sold as a new gun is no longer subject to the "no more than 2 evil features" list (it was a little different for shotguns, but its gone too!). Add pistol grip stocks, folding stocks, add tube extensions, flash hiders (though can't imagine why but whatever floats your boat).

What about the USAS 12, Street Sweeper and Striker 12? THey are still destructive devices (DD) & controlled by the 1934 Act. Why? B/c that MODEL (as in the actual MODEL by that name) is re-classified as a destructive device.

What if I add parts to my Rem 1100 or Beneli such that it starts to resemble one of the above DDs? THe law governing these guns does NOT work that way. Unless you actually manage to somehow buy a factory Street Sweeper or USAS 12, the DD lable does not apply. You can't turn your current-manufacture Remington, Saiga or Benelli into a USAS 12 or Street sweeper by adding previously banned parts.

[short_round]

You can do whatever you want within the rules of the match. The AWB rules no longer exist.

Unless you are in a state that has it's own ban. Such as California.

[racine]

Thanks for the many timely replies. I'd like to see the national crime rate continue to drop despite the expiration of the AWB so they can attribute the drop to the increase in CCW acceptance nationwide.

[rhino]

I'm hoping for some nice box magazine and drum feeding devices to add onto 1100s ...

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm hoping for some nice box magazine and drum feeding devices to add onto 1100s ...

I was recently at a BATFE seminar on ther National Firearms Act. I tried to get a straight answer out of them regarding why the USAS-12, striker-12, etc were declared destructive devices. They basically said they were declared DDs because they were non-sporting shotguns and led me to believe that BATFE can declare any shotgun to be non-sporting at any time (this is part of the Gun Control Act of 1968)

I am under the impression that now that the Assault Weapons Ban is dead and manufacturers can begin to make "assault shotguns" again, that BATFE will declare them to be destructive devices if they so choose. Magazine fed semi-auto shotguns with magazine capacities above 5 rounds seem to be what they consider "non-sporting".

The issue is confusing, and the questions I asked at the seminar just left me with more questions BATFE didn't really want to answer.

[Wakal]

Poke around a little, and you will find that the BATFE decided all on their own that anything over .500 is "unsporting" and thus they can ban them as 'too dangerous for civilians to own.'

Shotguns over .500 (such as 20 and 12g) fall under that, and as such any shotgun that they don't much like the look of are banned by decree. The "stroke of the pen, law of the land" decree like 94-1, which banned the USAS-12 (for example).

Read through the decision in Gilbert vs. US (the "USAS-12" case fighting that decree); pretty interesting stuff. Gilbert tried hard to keep their pet shotgun street legal, even using the arguement that a mag-fed 18" shotgun was just the ticket for police-style competitions. The government position was that even though a piece of military gear was good for competition, it still had no place IN competition...and besides, shotguns are for hunting ducks. Period.

The amusing part is that the SEALS evaluated the USAS-12, and found that while it was of incredible firepower...it was just too heavy to tote 20 miles. Even the tough military guys thought it wasn't practical, but that didn't stop the BATFE.

I researched the USAS-12 a lot, for obvious reasons

I fully expect the BATFE to call the Benelli 1015 (with the folding stock and the real mag tube) a DD, as well as the Saiga (especially with the new "SWAT" Saiga about to hit the market). Hope I'm wrong, though.

Alex

[Carlos]

A debate on whether to ask the ATF is going on right now on this site:

http://forum.saiga-12.com

Look under Saiga 12; Letter to ATF.

Seems to run 80/20 in favor of "DON'T ASK!"

The Saiga 12, 20 and 410 have standard stocks like the Remington 11-87 that was gifted to John Kerry through the "gun-show loophole" the week before last in West Virginia. With very rare exception, the 20 and 12 Saigas operate only with 5 round magazines - IN THE USA.

Overseas, the Saiga is available with a pistol grip like the Benelli and one can match the magazine capacity of a Benelli 8+1 round gun (in 12 gauge) or even a Benelli holding 10+1 rounds (in 20 gauge).

There is still an import ban in place (EVEN AFTER THE AWB SUNSET) & the Saiga with these features cannot be imported. However, now that the AWB is dead, it is theoretically possible to make a Saiga in the US that has these features (and possibly a US-made 10 round magazine too).

The fear is that if such a gun appears, it will resemble the USAS-12 destructive device (which is a SEMI AUTO SHOTGUN) and likewise be declared a D.D. NO vote in congress or presidential signature would be required. I repeat, its not something that you or your representatives would have a say in; they could simply decide to re-classify them just like they could for Benelli M1 10 round guns in use right now.

I would rather take my chances with a current administration ATF rather than the alternative. Think about it. Regards, D.

[Tengu]

I talked to the folks at EAA about the Saiga, and they told me they had no intention of providing higher capacity mags for it. It's too bad, because 8 rd mags (or 10s for the 20 ga) would be a sweet setup... maybe some clever US manufacturer will step forward and fill the demand. Overall, I'd have to say there seems to be a curious lack of excitement/new product offerings so far from the industry with the AWB sunset.

[Carlos]

I have followed EAA's response to the Siaga mag questions since the AWB. You wrote:

"I talked to the folks at EAA about the Saiga, and they told me they had no intention of providing higher capacity mags for it. "

EAA updated their website & the very laws they cite indicate that they could sell 8 round magazines if they so choose, but, as you point out, they will not sell such mags. Considering the consequences they fear, I have come to understand & accept their decision; if you had a proven business & were making money at it, why would you risk having it shut down by a regulatory decision outside your control? EAA stands to make more $$$ selling Saigas as-is (with only 5 round mags) vs. risking it all being banned with 8 round mags.

[SinistralRifleman]

Overall, I'd have to say there seems to be a curious lack of excitement/new product offerings so far from the industry with the AWB sunset.

1) most of the things people putting on their guns were allready available for use on pre-ban guns the past 10 years

2) It takes time to tool up to produce things and a substantial amount of money. Few companies risked this before it was certain the ban would go away.

3) Now that people can have specific types of products again, its going to take some good market research before companies start making new ones, to see what people are actually interested in buying.

The buying trends I see are people stocking up on high cap mags, after that market was starved for the past 10 years. Where the market will be in a year is anyone's guess at this point.

I think we might see some interesting new things at SHOT show in January.

[FloatingYogi]

You cannot configure it however you want without first adding US parts.

The Saiga series is an imported firearm.

Imported firearms are still regulared by "sporting requirement" provisions, which can be negated with the addition of US parts.

[uscbigdawg]

You can do whatever you want within the rules of the match.  The AWB rules no longer exist.

Unless you are in a state that has it's own ban. Such as California.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Al,

I live in CA (officially) and my 1100 came with a 15-round magazine tube on it.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic

249th MP Detachment (EACF)

Camp Humphreys, ROK

[Carlos]

"You cannot configure it however you want without first adding US parts.

The Saiga series is an imported firearm.

Imported firearms are still regulared by "sporting requirement" provisions, which can be negated with the addition of US parts."

Understood.

My Saiga is made in the USA. Its an American gun. MOST parts were made here.

Am I missing something in thinking that I can add a 25 round detachable drum, folding stock w/ pistol grip, threaded 18.5" barrel w/ a flash hider and a bayonet lug?

- also, my Saiga is NOT repeat NOT a "streetsweeper revolver" nor is it a USAS-12; it was NOT even made by the same company and is NOT a clone of the above D.D.s. I am still not sseing any problem - other than speculation about what *might* possibly happen w/ such mods. Anyone have facts or law on this?

Regards, C.

[kdmoore]

"You cannot configure it however you want without first adding US parts.

The Saiga series is an imported firearm.

Imported firearms are still regulared by "sporting requirement" provisions, which can be negated with the addition of US parts."

Understood.

My Saiga is made in the USA. Its an American gun. MOST parts were made here.

Am I missing something in thinking that I can add a 25 round detachable drum, folding stock w/ pistol grip, threaded 18.5" barrel w/ a flash hider and a bayonet lug?

- also, my Saiga is NOT repeat NOT a "streetsweeper revolver" nor is it a USAS-12; it was NOT even made by the same company and is NOT a clone of the above D.D.s.  I am still not sseing any problem - other than speculation about what *might* possibly happen w/ such mods. Anyone have facts or law on this?

Regards, C.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously, nothing has happened yet. Once you have rendered your shotgun a domestic firearm thru parts swapping then you are set.

There are a couple of unanswered questions that folks obviously have their opinions on.

If another shotgun were produced domestically with the same features of any of the DD shotguns, how long before it's declared a destructive device. Answers range from months to never. Answer could be influenced by the popularity and number made.

If another shotgun (saiga) could be converted by a gunsmith resemble the current DD shotguns (including drum or large mag production), how long before it's declared a dd. Again depends on popularity and numbers done. Again answers could go from a few months to never.

If a shotgun is routinely converted by individual owners to resemble DD shotguns .... well you get my drift.

As there is no clear answer your going to get a mix of answers that likely reflect there owners personality as much as anything.

The best question of all is .. if it is declared dd what happens to those already in possession?

[homeinvader]

Couple things:

According to the GCA or 1934 and NFA 1968, all shotguns are considered "sporting" unless specifically the Attorney General finds a particular shotgun "non-sporting" at which time it becomes a Destructive Device. It is not an ATF ruling or determination, it is soley by AG decree. ATF does not have this power. Because this can only come from the top by a Presidential appointee, it is highly political, so you are unlikely to see another such ruling under a Republican administration. No other AG in history has used this power. We are safe from any ATF opinion on this as it is beyond their power to make such a determination.

Also, the more popular a shotgun is, the LESS likely it would be determined "non-sporting." If a major city's police force or the military use it, then 10x as many are sold to civvies. Saigas are not used by any LE or gov't agency, so that could happen someday. But Benellis, Remingtons, Mossbergs in any configuration, no way. The "Non-Sporting" Clause works by make and model, not by configuration, so the AG would have to declare the Benelli M1014 specifically to be non-sporting. The gov't buys these too and if Benelli is forced to change their permit structure and cannot sell to civvies (imported DDs are not transferable and can only be owned by LE, gov't or licensees), the gov't will be paying exponentially more for the very shotgun they declared a DD. The DoD is a wonderful lobbyist when they buy your products. AS long as the USMC uses the M1014, it will be imported and sold to civvies with no hassles.

The USAS-12, Street-Sweepr and Striker were singled out because they were not that popular, were not used by any state or federal LEA or the DoD, so they were easy targets with little possible backlash. They were also radically different from the mainstream American view of a shotgun. Add a collapsible stock to a Benelli M4 or Remington 1100 semi-auto and modify the receiver to accept a detachable drum magazine, it is STILL a Remington 1100 or Benelli M4 and that is the make and model that would be reclassified. The American duck hunting crowd (numbering in the 10s of millions) will go berserk because they buy those makes and models too. See my point? This is a card that has ever been played until 1994 for good reason. Probably won't happen again either.

[homeinvader]

On the subject of 922r (imported parts), this is also highly misunderstood. For 922r to apply, there are 2 tests:

1) Is the firearm imported?

2) Has that firearm ever been denied importation in a different configuration? (Or is the approved firearm a reconfiguration of a disapproved firearm?)

Yes has to be answered to both questions or that firearm is exempt.

The only test of "unimportability" is Import Branch's denial or disapproval of a Form 6. There is no list of features that are banned from importation, only general guidelines because there are so many factoring criteria above and beyond configuration that are used in determining whether or not to approve a Form 6. For instance, the DoD itself plays an enormous role in helping smooth out the importation process for vendors like Benelli, HK, Sig, Beretta, etc. Well known that gov't contractors get their Form 6s approved faster with less stringency than all others.

Saigas are in fact unimportable with pistol grips, folding stocks, flash hiders, etc, so 922r absolutely applies. 922r, however, DOES NOT apply to any current Benelli product. All Benelli shotguns, even the discontinued M1 and M3, exist in the US without ever having been denied a Form 6 Import Permit in any configuration submitted or sold by Benelli. Benelli shotguns have come in with pistol grips, extended mag tubes and in the case of the M1014, collapsible stocks, all permitted for civilian sale.

In fact, while untested, there is a strong legal argument that suggests the assembly of an imported firearm into any non-factory configuration ("non-sporting") would NOT be a violation of 922r. Meaning, if the factory in Country X doesn't even make that model with a folding stock or pistol grip, how can it have ever been submitted and disapproved by Import Branch in order to be "unimportable" for purposes of 922r?

[Carlos]

I think that the answer is this:

"Saigas are in fact unimportable with pistol grips, folding stocks, flash hiders, etc, so 922r absolutely applies. 922r, however, DOES NOT apply to any current Benelli product. All Benelli shotguns, even the discontinued M1 and M3, exist in the US without ever having been denied a Form 6 Import Permit in any configuration submitted or sold by Benelli. Benelli shotguns have come in with pistol grips, extended mag tubes and in the case of the M1014, collapsible stocks, all permitted for civilian sale."

Sooooo, I must first "make" my Siaga into a USA made gun. How? Majority US made parts. Every pistol grip AK-47 has enough USA made parts that it IS a USA-Made gun. My siaga has US butt stock, pistol from and all interals made in USA.

Just like my USA made AR-15 Rifle, I can do as much to my SIaga as I can to John Kerry's Remington 1187 gift shotgun from the last election. Ban that!

Thanks for the info. Very insightful.

[homeinvader]

Sooooo, I must first "make" my Siaga into a USA made gun. How? Majority US made parts. Every pistol grip AK-47 has enough USA made parts that it IS a USA-Made gun. My siaga has US butt stock, pistol from and all interals made in USA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A way around 922r and the imported parts count is creating an NFA firearm. If you take an unmodified Saiga and Form 1 it into a Short Barrelled Shotgun, you may then build that Saiga into any configuration you want without adjusting the imported parts count. You may use all imported parts if you like. You may also cut the barrel down to any length you wish.

922r only applies to Title 1 guns. Title II (machine guns, suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, etc) by their very nature are "non-sporting" and are not burdened by 922r.

The side-benefit of the USAS-12, Striker and Street-Sweepers being reclassified as Destructive Devices, their owners, upon receiving their approved Form 1 registrations could cut the barrels down to any length they wanted with no further paperwork or legal hassles. A Destructive Device classification supercedes all other classifications other than Machine Gun, so there is no 16" rifle barrel/ 18" shotgun barrel minimum requirement. Kinds cool.