Hey SOs: how about giving procedurals

[TriggerT]

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners.

No, if they cheating by rules that are known to all, then they should be called on it. The problem in my experience is that in IDPA they will call one shooter on something, but let it go with other shooters. I am not saying thtis doesn't happen in IPSC, but I think there is more of it in IDPA.

[Duane Thomas]

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners.

It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired.

- Robert Anson Heinlein

[Mayonaise]

Had we spoken up, we would no doubt be instantly labeled......whiners?

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners.

Or so it seems to me......

Please don't misconstrue my comments.. The problem I see is that some IPSC shooters crossing over to IDPA and break the rules and whining about being called on it. Granted I see more of it online than in real life. Most shooters I know who crossover get along just fine and any of the "us vs them" chit chat is all good natured fun.

[Carmoney]

Had we spoken up, we would no doubt be instantly labeled......whiners?

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners. 

Or so it seems to me......

Please don't misconstrue my comments.. The problem I see is that some IPSC shooters crossing over to IDPA and break the rules and whining about being called on it. Granted I see more of it online than in real life. Most shooters I know who crossover get along just fine and any of the "us vs them" chit chat is all good natured fun.

Mayo: Gotcha--no offense taken. You're right that there is normally no conflict. I personally enjoy shooting both disciplines, as do many of my shooting buddies. I do think that IDPA is experiencing some of the same issues that USPSA/IPSC went through during its own growth phase. Pin shooting was always so much easier--Richard just did what the hell he wanted and the rest of us went along with it.....

[Carmoney]

You see, that's the problem with cheaters--they force all of the rest of us to feel like we're being either chickenshits or whiners.

It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired.

- Robert Anson Heinlein

Duane: Are you saying I should probably not be posting to any online forums after 10pm??

[geezer-lock]

On the first page of our beloved LGB, right after the address line you will find:

"Following are the official rules governing "Defensive Pistol" Competition as a shooting discipline."

The on-line Dictionary.com has these two definitions of competition listed first:

"The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.

A test of skill or ability; a contest: a skating competition."

IDPA is not IPSC, it is not action pistol, it is not combat, it is not training, it is...well, IDPA. As a "shooting dicipline" IDPA has its own forms just like the martial arts. Right or wrong, good, bad or indifferent, just bring your gun and shoot the damned thing. I guarantee that it will beat the hell out of any day you ever had at the office.

geezer

[Mayonaise]

Mayo: Gotcha--no offense taken. You're right that there is normally no conflict. I personally enjoy shooting both disciplines, as do many of my shooting buddies. I do think that IDPA is experiencing some of the same issues that USPSA/IPSC went through during its own growth phase. Pin shooting was always so much easier--Richard just did what the hell he wanted and the rest of us went along with it.....

No problemo.

A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. It's all good. Different strokes for different folks. People need to lighten up, play by the rules remember that it's all about having a good time with like minded individuals!

Welcome the return of affordable "Standard Capacity" magazines!

[racerba]

FTDR?

How and why is it so wrong to shoot extra shots?!?! it's IDPA rules that you must retain the mag. In the real world, nobody retains their mags unless you're in a war. There's no reason nor need to, especially if you're carrying 3 spare mags. In the real world, you reload when you need to, not when you're behind cover. You may need to reload and there are no cover available, does that mean your gun stays dry?!?! He** no - I'm reloading!!!!

That's the problem with IDPA - they want to make it so realistic that it becomes un-realistic.

[firewalker]

I dont like to see shooters intentionally dump rounds to gain advantages on reload places. This is no good for our sport Thankfully it is being inforced

Just my .02

[Sestock]

IDPA is much more of a gamers sport than USPSA.

[tightloop]

Oh, you mean round dumpers in every class but revo..right..cause every body does it, if you want to win...

[Mark Perez]

there are more cases in the LGB that favor /encourage firing extra rounds than not:

Scoring Method:

Vickers Count (for use when shooting speed shoots & scenarios): 

Vickers Count scoring is based on assessing the shooter a "Time" penalty for every point the shooter drops from the total "Possible" point score (points down). To score Vickers Count simply take the time it took to complete the string of fire (raw time) and ADD five tenths (.50) of a second for each point down from the possible score. Add any applicable penalties and total to get the Final Score . As many shots as desired may be fired but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored (Example: if 2 hits per target are specified in the course description and you fire 3 shots, ONLY the 2 highest scoring hits will count for score).

1. How does Vickers count scoring work?

Take the total possible points for the string or stage and deduct the score the competitor shot.  The difference is the number of points down.  Multiply the points down by .50 (.50 equals a half second penalty for each point down) and add this time to the time it took the competitor to shoot the string or stage.  Add any applicable penalties and the result is the competitor’s final score. If more than the required hits are fired, the best hits of the specified number will score. The competitor with the LOWEST SCORE WINS. The Vickers count scoring system is designed to reward accuracy over pure speed. VC converts everything to a time score, fastest time wins.

4. What constitutes a Procedure Penalty?

A procedure penalty is assessed when the competitor does not follow the procedures set forth in the course of fire description. 

Here are some examples:

1.  The competitor’s foot touches the ground outside the shooting box at the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier.  One procedural penalty is assessed regardless of the number of shots fired.

2.  Failure to do a tactical re-load when specified. If the competitor makes an honest attempt to retain the partial magazine and it falls from the competitor’s pocket or pouch after he/she has begun to move to another firing point, no penalty should be assessed.

3.  Shooting from a stationary position when the course of fire specifies shots are to be fired while moving. One penalty, regardless of the number of shots fired.

4.  Firing a "double tap" (2 rapid consecutive shots on the same target) on a target when the course of fire specifies that targets are to be engaged with one shot each, and then re-engaged for a total of 2 hits per target.

5.  Using both hands when the course of fire specifies that the shots are to be fired strong hand only or weak hand only. One procedural penalty will be assessed regardless of the number of shots fired.

6.  Shooting targets out of sequence if a specific sequence is specified, e.g., tactical order.

7.  Premature start.  An example of this would be movement of the shooting hand towards the gun between the standby command and the start signal.

8.  Firing extra shots on Par or Limited Vickers scored stages.  Tape over 1 of the highest scoring hits for each extra shot fired and also assess 1 procedural penalty.

No mention incurring a PE for firing extra shots in a Vickers count string.

Scoring Issues:

Limited Vickers Count scoring should ONLY be used on standard exercise courses of fire. All speed shoot and scenario courses should use standard Vickers Count (unlimited # of shots permitted) so the shooters will always be training themselves to pick up any shot that doesn't feel like it was under control. 

Looks like a legitimate reason to fire extra shots..

ASSISTING THE SHOOTER

Every effort should be made to assist the shooter in having a safe and enjoyable match. It is the goal of the safety officer to thoroughly explain the course-of-fire, answer questions, instruct the shooter on safety, give the benefit of the doubt on any questionable scoring question or ruling and do anything possible to assist the shooter during the match. Issuing a procedural penalty and/or disqualification should be the last thing a good IDPA SO would want to do. The range NAZI mentality of us (SOs) against them (shooters) is NOT welcome in IDPA and will NOT be tolerated.

No explanation required..

Possible Failure to Do Right (20 second penalty)

"Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or techniques."

Examples:

1. Firing extra rounds so that you can reload at a more convenient time. This is VERY hard to call!

2.  Purposefully committing a procedural error, because your score will be better, even with the penalty.

3.  Not reloading to fire one more round because your score will be better, even with a miss.

4.  Unsportsmanlike conduct.

5.  Dropping an unloaded firearm.

6.  Handling an unloaded firearm off the firing line or away from the safe area.

7.  Shots over the backstop. 

re :No. 1; If it is “very hard to call” , WHY CONSIDER IT ???

ON STAGES REQUIRING A TACTICAL OR SLIDE LOCK LOAD, CAN I DUMP ROUNDS DOWN RANGE SO I WILL BE ABLE TO RELOAD BY A FASTER METHOD/MORE CONVENIENT LOCATION? YES, however you will receive a “Failure to do right” penalty of 20 seconds for the stage for not negotiating the course in the spirit of the contest.

See no. 1 above.This is in direct conflict with the following:

CAN I SHOOT MORE SHOTS AT A TARGET THAN IS SPECIFIED IN THE COURSE DESCRIPTION? YES, as long as the course is specified as a “Vickers Count” stage,, your best hits of the specified number will be scored. On courses designated as “Limited Vickers Count”, you may only fire the specified number of shots. Any extra shots will incur a procedural penalty.

See above.

Course Design Rationale:

…

Requiring multiple hits, i.e. 3-6 hits on targets, simulates real life and should be encouraged. However, mixing the number of hits required on targets within the same string of fire leads to procedural penalties and should be discouraged. The same goes for mixing strings requiring a 2-2-2 engagement with a 1-1-2-1-1 type engagement