Forward of a loaded gun.

[Ron Ankeny]

This came up in another thread. Greywolf_69 asked:

Rule 8.3.8 Paraphased states that "Range is clear" command MUST be given before personnel MAY move forward to score, patch, reset, etc. To me that means that no one can be forward of a loaded gun.

Based on that rule, as an RO I should not allow anyone forward of a loaded gun so if a popper blows over, do I have to have the shooter unload & show clear.

Vinny this might be time for a rules interpretation.

I too have wondered about being forward of a loaded gun. We have all seen times when a popper blows over, or something similar, and the competitor remains hot.

[blackdragon]

In the past as an RO when this has happened to me I would tell the shooter to put his hands on his head, Let someone go down range. It is a good Question! Iam not sure what the correct ruling would be.

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[Vince Pinto]

I too have wondered about being forward of a loaded gun. We have all seen times when a popper blows over, or something similar, and the competitor remains hot.

At the end of a COF the competitor has a loaded gun in his hands and the unloading process, which culminates with the "Range Is Clear" declaration, signifies that the gun has been holstered and the competitor's hands are clear of it.

Prior to the Start Signal, the gun is already holstered and the competitor's hands are also clear of it. Moreover, any RO worth his salt will order the competitor to cross his arms in front of his chest if and when another Range Official is asked to go downrange to reset a fallen popper.

[blackdragon]

So Vince,

There would be no penalty or violation for this?

Ivan

[Vince Pinto]

So Vince, There would be no penalty or violation for this?

No, there is no penalty if someone goes downrange of a competitor who is on the line with a loaded & holstered handgun provided the person going downrange is doing so with the express authority of the RO, who remains with and directly supervises the competitor.

[blackdragon]

Vince,Thanks for clearing that up!

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[Ron Ankeny]

Yeppers, thanks. We have the competitor cross his/her arms over their chest. Just wanted to be sure we were doing things right.

[JohnL]

We always have the competitor place their hands on their head and the RO remains at their side if someone has to go down range after the LAMR.

[kimel]

So in the case of the new classifier 03-09 "On the Move" where scoring and taping is required between strings (I won't even get started on that diatribe here) then we really need two ROs and a scorekeeper to run the stage...right?

We need one RO to supervise the shooter between strings, one RO to score and the scorekeeper to, well, keep score.

This would also apply to the 98 series classifier that required resetting steel between strings as well.

[BDH]

Looks like this one has been well handled. I always do the hands on head, tell them not to move, and stand right there watching them.

Here's one for you..... I was shooting a club match, and standing approx 5 or 6 feet in front of a big long wall segment. We were rushing because weather was coming in, and the wall had already been partially blown down once. The RO gives LAMR, AYR, Standby, Beep (and I start my draw). Just as he hit Beep, a big gust of wind comes up and the wall starts coming forward. The RO, and two or three other people on the squad run forward of me and my loaded, unholstered pistol, to save the wall. Fortunately, I do not have a sub-second draw, so I immediately pointed the pistol straight into the ground about a foot or so in front of me, and asked the RO to come back and clear me....

Good thing they did not do that with one of our lightning fast GM's on the line!

[Nik Habicht]

What's with the hands on head thing? You're gonna trust the competitor to move like a house afire, after the beep, with a loaded gun in his hands, but somehow he's incapable of standing there with his hands off his gun while someone runs downrange? I can uderstand it if you're doing it as a visual signal to the downrange personnel --- but I'm probably more in favor of arms crossed. Less affect on circulation to hands/fingers....

[Jim Norman]

Come on Nik, You know the only safe thing to do is have the competitor extend his arms straight up over his head and hold them there till the RO returns. That way all that heavy blood will drain out of his arms so he will get an even faster draw!

Seriously, I have no problem with the shooter simply standing there with the RO. The gun is in the holster, the RO is right there, the shooter is not going to start the COF till the RO clears teh range and gives the signal. All that arms over hte head stuff is for the non-shooters.

If the shooter is that scary that we need him to place his arms on his head, we should A) unload him and take his gun because I don't even want to run him.

Jim

[kimel]

As it was explained to me, the crossed arms or hands on head idea is that this is an unusal position and thus, reminds the shooter that they are doing this for a reason.

Yeah...I know, psychobabble mumbo jumbo. But I have seen this at every club I have ever shot with.

I don't see a problem with doing it and I don't see a problem with not doing it. The key is the supervision of the shooter by someone at all times.

[Ron Ankeny]

For the Sweedish Bikini Team, hands on head, for the rest of us, arms crossed.

[Vince Pinto]

For the Sweedish Bikini Team, hands on head, for the rest of us, arms crossed.

If one of the SBT members was on the line, I'd be willing to put myself in harm's way by standing directly in front of her and giving her a really tight hug because, when it comes to safety, I'm always willing to go the extra mile.

[BDH]

Vinny, thanks for looking out for all of us!

[LPatterson]

To get back to the original reason for my reply, CM03-09 requires scoring between strings as does another 99-something that I refuse to remember because I shot it so badly. Something about 2 rounds in 1 target and only 1 round in everything else, scored between strings. I'm over 60 and the memory aint what it used to be.

2004 edition rules are not yet effective in the US but I don't have the 14th edition available so I will quote from 2004 draft rules. 9.6.1 says "After the Range Officer has declared "Range is Clear", the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the score."

But "Range is Clear" rule 8.3.8 is preceeded by 8.3.7 which is "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster." So unless the gun is clear, no one should be forward of the shooter with a hot gun scoring targets.

The score sheet for 99-whatever did not have a separate section for scoring of each string anyway.

I think it is time to ask for an interpretation of rules that encourage resetting steel and scoring targets while the shooter has a loaded gun whether the arms are crossed or on top of the head.

[kimel]

I agree.

The score sheet for 03-09 does not have provisions for scoring each string individually which probably makes for much confusing chicken scratch. It does have provisions for the separate string times.

As a shooter, it is my right to view each target and ask for overlays where required, point out missed edge hits, etc. If I am standing back 10 yards in the box with an RO standing in front of me that "right" has been denied me.

And no, I don't even want to entertain the notion of a shooter with a hot pistol wandering around up range. If we all used "real" holsters I would't have as much of a problem with this but a race rig? Forget it.

Sounds to me like the only proper way to handle this pig is UASC between strings.

[Vince Pinto]

Guys,

When a COF requires you to score after each string, you have three options:

A. The RO unloads and then reloads the competitor for each string; or

B. The competitor remains hot & holstered, under the supervision of the RO, while the competitor's delegate goes downrange to accompany the scorer; or

C. The competitor, under the authority and supervision of the RO, accompanies the scorer downrange to personally verify each target.

Personally, I prefer Plan B.

[Dead Buff]

Ditto, also in favour of B, but have got nothing against A except for the time factor and nothing against C either since I haven't seen many fallen guns and all rigs have some kind of lock on them...just use it

The idea of a cock'd 'n lock'd pistol under supervision is less scary or dangerous then Mr Brain Fart doing a 360 during a run...(yes if've seen it...real close...looking down that muzzel....)

If you go HAH just let the guy relax for a couple of minutes before you start him...same for crossed hands....and if Vince was the RO and the shooter one of the SBT, let him sit out that round to get his hart rate below 220 again (I know that when it comes to safety hugs Vince might get a bit excited - safety first! )

[MasterLefty]

This is a slight drift on the subject, but still deals with people downrange.

At the '91 US Nationals, I stopped to shoot a target and had the RO run past me heading downrange. I moved the pistol to the side, the RO ran back and I continued shooting. There was no call for interference, range equipment malfunction, no request from me for a reshoot.

Today I know better.

Kenny

[ivanhu]

Seriously, I have no problem with the shooter simply standing there with the RO. The gun is in the holster, the RO is right there, the shooter is not going to start the COF till the RO clears teh range and gives the signal. All that arms over hte head stuff is for the non-shooters.

Jim,

we disagree again. There are several things to consider.

a. Those race holsters. Sometimes a light push, or a small punch will kick the gun off to the ground. If the shooter just stands, his/her hand is still on near the gun. A small movement may cause the gun to fall. If he/she stands still, with arms crossed, then it won't happen, or at least the possibility of that to happen is far less.

b. Some shooters will spend their "extra time" to run through the COF in mind. We don't want them to move or making exercises, as it also increases the possibility of a fallen gun, do we?

c. As it was mentioned, that psycho thingie. That position reminds the shooter what's happening.

If the shooter is that scary that we need him to place his arms on his head, we should A) unload him and take his gun because I don't even want to run him.

As you perhaps know, or maybe you don't, the shooters occassionally do unexpected things, due to a momentary brain fade. Just suppose that he stands there, with a loaded gun on his side, with closed eyes as he runs through the COF in mind, when a close "beep" arrives, perhaps from the next bay. Will or will not he draw? After all, we all trained ourselves to react fast to the start signal. Were he try to do that when his arms crossed, he has more time to realize what's going on, and the RO also has longer time to stop his arm.

In a way, all shooters are "scary" - they have an equipment with them that may cause serious harm or even death. The more precautions we might do the better. You know, layered defence is better, and the more layers of safety you have, the possibility of something unwished to happen is less.

Best Regards,

Ivan "The Terrible" KETLER

[kimel]

Another thing to consider, at least with 03-09, is that the shooter must change postitions within the starting box between strings. When we ran it, we started holding the shooter in the position they had just shot from but, as Ivan mentioned, many of them wanted to get a look at things from the other side an mentally prepare so we started moving them right after the holstering of the pistol and before anyone moved down range.

[Jim Norman]

Guys,

When a COF requires you to score after each string, you have three options:

A. The RO unloads and then reloads the competitor for each string; or

B. The competitor remains hot & holstered, under the supervision of the RO, while the competitor's delegate goes downrange to accompany the scorer; or

C. The competitor, under the authority and supervision of the RO, accompanies the scorer downrange to personally verify each target.

Personally, I prefer Plan B.

Option D:

Where the range size permits, set-up seperate arrays and shoot each then score all.

Much easier is Option E: Specifically disallow stacking and shoot all the strings, record each time and score all the hits. Faster and easiest of all in my opinion.

BTW, Vince thanks for the eats at the Nats

Jim