remoandiris Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The OP's opening sentence stated this question has come up a couple of times. Another question that comes up from time to time is following (or not following) rules at L1 matches as we do at L2 and L3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 As MD and RM, I feel a bit more responsibility than I did when I was just an RO. It's hard to let a blatant safety violation pass. Shooters tend to be upset when they get a loaded gun pointed at them, and to let the shooter get away with it...not good. Are you saying when you serve as MD or RM you can/will call stop to a CoF if you see what you believe is a safety violation? I'm pretty sure the RM is part of the match staff..... ....and thus capable of issuing a DQ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Are you saying when you serve as MD or RM you can/will call stop to a CoF if you see what you believe is a safety violation? RM, not MD. At our L1 matches, I am now both. Absolutely. Rule 7.1.6: "RM has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety,..." Sure, but who is closest to the action and, by rule, in charge of the CoF? If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in. Whatever, its your world. IMO, if you're in the peanut gallery, you're in the peanut gallery. It's not always that simple. The stage might have a safe table in the pit, and if the ROs working that stage are focused on the shooter, what's an RM to do if he notices a competitor loading mags there? Or an RM might come around a corner and have a very different view of a competitor than the RO following the shooter..... It all depends on how deep the pits are, and what the angles in question are.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The OP's opening sentence stated this question has come up a couple of times. Another question that comes up from time to time is following (or not following) rules at L1 matches as we do at L2 and L3. I've worked plenty of Level 1s as RM, and a couple of Level 2s. If I see -- with certainty -- a violation of safety rules I will stop the shooter. No ifs, ands, or buts. I'll also discuss the situation with the stage staff..... Hasn't happened at a Level 2 yet, has at a Level 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in. Has nothing to do with having faith in an RO. It has everything to do with being overall responsible for the safe conduct of a match. Good RM's should be observing everything going on in their match to the best extent possible. IMO, if you're in the peanut gallery, you're in the peanut gallery. Come on dude. You are just trying to stir up S#!t with that kind of comment. If you said that to me at my match I would probably give you your money back and ask you to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Sure, but who is closest to the action and, by rule, in charge of the CoF? As I mentioned earlier, this is a cramped indoor range. We're all very close to the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 It's not always that simple. The stage might have a safe table in the pit, and if the ROs working that stage are focused on the shooter, what's an RM to do if he notices a competitor loading mags there? Or an RM might come around a corner and have a very different view of a competitor than the RO following the shooter..... It all depends on how deep the pits are, and what the angles in question are.... I got what you're saying about the safe table or something else outside the CoF. That isn't the crux of my discussion. The RM may come around the corner at a different angle and believe they saw what wasn't there...because they are at a different angle than the RO in charge of the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in. Has nothing to do with having faith in an RO. It has everything to do with being overall responsible for the safe conduct of a match. Good RM's should be observing everything going on in their match to the best extent possible. IMO, if you're in the peanut gallery, you're in the peanut gallery. Come on dude. You are just trying to stir up S#!t with that kind of comment. If you said that to me at my match I would probably give you your money back and ask you to leave. You can think I'm just stirring up shit all you want. There have been enough posts/threads on this forum about peanut gallery distractions. No need for more distractions from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 It's not always that simple. The stage might have a safe table in the pit, and if the ROs working that stage are focused on the shooter, what's an RM to do if he notices a competitor loading mags there? Or an RM might come around a corner and have a very different view of a competitor than the RO following the shooter..... It all depends on how deep the pits are, and what the angles in question are.... I got what you're saying about the safe table or something else outside the CoF. That isn't the crux of my discussion. The RM may come around the corner at a different angle and believe they saw what wasn't there...because they are at a different angle than the RO in charge of the stage. By your own words, shouldn't you trust your RM to make a proper call in that case? If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in. Also, there is the appeal process if it is a BS call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 It's not always that simple. The stage might have a safe table in the pit, and if the ROs working that stage are focused on the shooter, what's an RM to do if he notices a competitor loading mags there? Or an RM might come around a corner and have a very different view of a competitor than the RO following the shooter..... It all depends on how deep the pits are, and what the angles in question are.... I got what you're saying about the safe table or something else outside the CoF. That isn't the crux of my discussion. The RM may come around the corner at a different angle and believe they saw what wasn't there...because they are at a different angle than the RO in charge of the stage. The RM needs to be sure. The RM is also (at least should be) the most experienced range official present..... So, he should get it right..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 It's not always that simple. The stage might have a safe table in the pit, and if the ROs working that stage are focused on the shooter, what's an RM to do if he notices a competitor loading mags there? Or an RM might come around a corner and have a very different view of a competitor than the RO following the shooter..... It all depends on how deep the pits are, and what the angles in question are.... I got what you're saying about the safe table or something else outside the CoF. That isn't the crux of my discussion. The RM may come around the corner at a different angle and believe they saw what wasn't there...because they are at a different angle than the RO in charge of the stage. By your own words, shouldn't you trust your RM to make a proper call in that case? If you have such little faith in the ROs, get people you do have faith in. Also, there is the appeal process if it is a BS call. One would hope the RO would also get it right so there would be no need for the RM to make the initial call. There is no appeal under 11.1.2. if the RM says they saw what they think they saw. 11.1.2. <snip> Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 RM's are not part of the "peanut gallery". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 One would hope the RO would also get it right so there would be no need for the RM to make the initial call. Where you are talking about hope, the opening poster is saying the RO missed the call (due to positioning or whatever reason). It happens. The question is...can another match official make a call that was missed by the primary match official? The answer there seems pretty logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 IMO, the question is "at a level 1 match, who is a match official?" If I just handed the timer to another shooter, and I'm getting ready for my run, have I moved from official to peanut gallery? Am I only an RO if I am holding the timer or the clipboard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 One would hope the RO would also get it right so there would be no need for the RM to make the initial call. Where you are talking about hope, the opening poster is saying the RO missed the call (due to positioning or whatever reason). It happens. The question is...can another match official make a call that was missed by the primary match official? The answer there seems pretty logical. IMO, the question is "at a level 1 match, who is a match official?" If I just handed the timer to another shooter, and I'm getting ready for my run, have I moved from official to peanut gallery? Am I only an RO if I am holding the timer or the clipboard? Level 1, 2 or 3, the rulebook is the same unless specifically stated. IMO, once you give up the timer or clipboard, you are no longer the RO for that stage. But, reading Nik's and Flex's posts, I am reconsidering my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 One would hope the RO would also get it right so there would be no need for the RM to make the initial call. Where you are talking about hope, the opening poster is saying the RO missed the call (due to positioning or whatever reason). It happens. The question is...can another match official make a call that was missed by the primary match official? The answer there seems pretty logical. IMO, the question is "at a level 1 match, who is a match official?" If I just handed the timer to another shooter, and I'm getting ready for my run, have I moved from official to peanut gallery? Am I only an RO if I am holding the timer or the clipboard? Level 1, 2 or 3, the rulebook is the same unless specifically stated. IMO, once you give up the timer or clipboard, you are no longer the RO for that stage. But, reading Nik's and Flex's posts, I am reconsidering my opinion. I think what we all want, especially with regards to safety rules, is to get the call right. If the correct decision is made, does it matter who makes the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxriver6 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 One would hope the RO would also get it right so there would be no need for the RM to make the initial call. Where you are talking about hope, the opening poster is saying the RO missed the call (due to positioning or whatever reason). It happens. The question is...can another match official make a call that was missed by the primary match official? The answer there seems pretty logical. IMO, the question is "at a level 1 match, who is a match official?" If I just handed the timer to another shooter, and I'm getting ready for my run, have I moved from official to peanut gallery? Am I only an RO if I am holding the timer or the clipboard? Level 1, 2 or 3, the rulebook is the same unless specifically stated. IMO, once you give up the timer or clipboard, you are no longer the RO for that stage. But, reading Nik's and Flex's posts, I am reconsidering my opinion. I think what we all want, especially with regards to safety rules, is to get the call right. If the correct decision is made, does it matter who makes the call? No it does not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyH Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 angles make optical illusions happen.I've been in peanut gallery in heard people say whoo and I didn't see it and we're looking at the same thing.so I would let the RO make a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 angles make optical illusions happen.I've been in peanut gallery in heard people say whoo and I didn't see it and we're looking at the same thing.so I would let the RO make a call. Everybody deals with angles. Everybody. Whether the call is correctly made isn't in question here. The question is...can another match official make a call that was missed by the primary match official? The answer there seems pretty logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now