...Crappy Situations From Confusion and Course Design

[Kyle Norris]

Shooting Area 8 yesterday(we won't say anything about how I did) I was nearly DQ'ed because of a wierd situation. It was a pure run and gun stage. I took off running hard, mags went flying. I started to back through one of the props to retrive a magazine that had fallen, during which the ARO yelled "muzzle". Now, my muzzle had never departed downrange, but it caused both me and RO to stop and look at her in confussion. At this time I had the RO trapped in the set of props. This RO is a guy I've shot with since I started, and he's been both tremendously nice and helpful. The problem was I started moving again before he did. That meant he ended up up range from me. The ARO called "whoa"(when the heck did that become a range command?) he called "stop". At that point they tried to DQ me for unsafe gun handling. I argued that it was RO interfernce for being out of position. I also asked for a RM to come rule. They then tried to tell me that I couldn't have an RM come, I had to go to arbitration. I don't think so, I read my rule book and make a point to know most of it. Luckily, there was an RM standing there watching the entire thing happen. He got everyone straightened out, and I got a reshoot. However, I still feel really bad about arguing with a guy I consider a friend that had just been up range of my gun. Why do people design traps like this? Any time when the RO and shooter have to be that close together there is a problem. Should USPSA look at doing something about this, perhaps including it in the CRO course?

[Shooter Grrl]

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Quote: from Kyle Norris - I still feel really bad about arguing with a guy I consider a friend that had just been up range of my gun. Why do people design traps like this? Any time when the RO and shooter have to be that close together there is a problem. Should USPSA look at doing something about this, perhaps including it in the CRO course?

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Hi Kyle,

I feel for you!  But there's a few things you should rembmer.  First, when you're the shooter, it's your time to perform.  Don't feel bad for doing the right thing and make sure you're comfortable for the outcome.

As to the course design, I dunno!  Sure wish I did know though!  Refer to my previous rant on my confusions and solutions!

K

[BrianH]

Regardless of stage design, it is generally the resposibility of the RO to

1-stay out of the shooters way

2-be ready for the shooter to start backing up

3-realize that if you make an error in running a shooter,

you defer to the shooters position and give them a reshoot; you certainly don't try to DQ him!

On the losing mags issue, I learned years ago the best thing to do is yell "backing up!", and I mean YELL IT, so the RO hears, the ARO hears, and all the other shooters hear, so that if there is a bumping issue, it is clear what your intentions were.

And I agree this should definitely be addressed in the RO classes....I haven't been to one so I wouldn't know.

[Chriss Grube]

Kyle,

The match was full of piss poorly designed stages! Beach bash was the worst! It was full of potential 180's. I have never heard of a rotating 180 line? They should have moved the walls so it was not a problem. Course design and common sense! There is no question you get the reshoot! It was a long, Hot, Hard match and by the end of the day Brain fade ran amuck. I doubt if you'll see anything like that again.

[38supPat]

Kinda makes me glad I didn't make my way down for that...Area 1 had its share of traps too...13 DQs on the first day (it was on Fri the 13th, and the 13th guy DQ'd on the 13th round...spooky)

Match designers need to worry more about quality stages rather than trapping shooters

Pat

[Bill H]

And so the Area 8 comments start.

Cmon Chris how could you NOT enjoy that match. They even highlighted the places to shoot with white targets all around.

Don't forget the super swinger. I'll bet if you weigh that target and check it's velocity it was making major.

Bill Hearne

[Chriss Grube]

Bill,

I was waiting for the clear to take off command on the SOB. I was HAPPY with a C and D. The sad part is I shot that one pretty decent. Beach or SOB as it should have been named cost me 45 match points. I left that target in the left corner of the far right array untouched! ooppps! I should still get bumped up though. I definetly wouldn't want to shot that match with irons!

[Kyle Norris]

What ya'll saw is typical Virginia course design. Sometimes I swear it's a game here to screw the match fee paying shooter. One of the better matches in this area was the Summer Blast FOP match, Larry Houck is a shooter and put up straightforward stages(except one). Some people say they get tired of fast, open shooting. I get tired of trying to find the brown to shoot in a sea of white and black. Not to mention hidden targets and targets vissible at different angles in different ports so you engage them twice. I really get sick of this $#!t alot of times. just give me a straightforward shooting problem, not one I have to have a tagret scavenger hunt on.

(Edited by Kyle Norris at 7:30 pm on Aug. 27, 2001)

[Duane Thomas]

"Area 1 had its share of traps too...13 DQs on the first day (it was on Fri the 13th, and the 13th guy DQ'd on the 13th round...spooky)"

And 20 DQs by the end of the third day. Lawd have mercy!

I didn't really see any traps out at Area One. There were however a fair number of stages where you had to move before drawing (the one with the light saber comes to mind, the one where you had to drag the dummy up to the wall before shooting - Rescue the Princess?) and a lot of people who hadn't figured out when you do that, as soon as you start moving, you should put your hand on the gun to hold it in the holster. That was pure shooter error, aided and abetted by certain ultra-skeletonized holster designs, not a trap. I came to really appreciate the tension adjustment knob on my Safariland 010.

When you have a high number of DQs, if they're caused by poor stage design, you'll see almost all of them - primarily breaking the 180 - coming off one or maybe two stages. We didn't see that at Area One, the DQs were coming from all over, and they were mostly people dropping guns out of holsters or having ADs.

[38supPat]

Lots o' targets on or near the 180 line though...could have set them farther back

Pat

[Duane Thomas]

Yeah, that's one of my bitches about course design. Shot an IDPA match this weekend with a shotgun stage featuring a wall that, if you came around the right hand side, would put you REAL close to the 180. No problem, I figured I'd just go around the left-hand side which would allow me to point the gun straight downrange - and the left-hand side of the wall was totally open to do that. During the walk-though I asked the guy who designed the stage, "Is there any reason I can't go around the left-and side of the wall? Going around the right-hand side is just going to take me really close to breaking the 180." "No, you have to go around the right-hand side." "But the left-hand side of the wall is totally open." "I can get more wall and extend it all the way to the berm if you want." "Nah, that's okay." Wotta maroon, as that great sage Bugs Bunny would say. The shotgun stage was a pay-as-you-go optional stage. It wasn't worth arguing about. I just kept my $2 and didn't shoot that stage - and it was worth every penny I paid for it.

[38supPat]

Shot a match recently at a local club where they ste up targets in a window, pretty much right at 180 line facing left. We were told on the walk through that if you shot from the left side of the window you were ok but if you shot from the right you'd be DQ'd for breaking 180!

Pat

[Kenny D]

My only gripe on the area 8's was the "Spinning" target. If that was meant to be a bad guy, in a real life situation, you would not have needed to shoot him as he would have been to dizzy to shoot back. The word "Practical" didn't apply on this stage. I thought the the rest of the match was great though.

Chriss, I've attended several matches at Fredericksburg over the years and they usually have a stage on that particular bay with a "changing 180". Even when they hosted the Nationals.

I've also seen similar stages at other clubs. You'll see this more often at a match that has access to a "Tire House"

[38supPat]

How 'bout a weak hand stage, three partial targets at 7 yds. Starting with the gun in holster...unloaded...Hmmm, draw, put mag in gun, rack slide, transfer to left hand all to shoot 6 rnds. Lots of movements for very little shooting. And the RO is the president of IROA. Tough to protest a stupid stage with him running it. At the same match, all shot in 5 degree weather with severe wind, a stage where you are standing in a turret that you have to turn with your hips while shooting targets over a 180 degree span, Poppers at the end activate appearing targets in the middle. Not really a bad stage but when the match is running behind to start, and this one takes an extrodinary time to reset due to activators, which invariably failed every other run, and frozen competitors, it sucked. All because the match directors wanted to boast a high round count match. Shooters would have been happier with a smaller match and no hypothermia. #1 reason for new shooters leaving...stupid course designs that aggravate and piss off seasoned shooters don't go over well with newbies.

Pat

[Avalanche]

Thanks !!

This newbie is paying close attention to the seasoned shooters and hopefully learning from them.

Your insight will contribute to my patience and an understanding when I encounter a problem.

This newb is here for the haul!!!!