Production non-compliance, advice needed

[zhuk]

Have been shooting a MP9L for the past 2 years, in IPSC Production (obviously). At this year's National titles the barrel was measured for the first time, and just scraped in (and I mean just) at 126.99mm.

Since I am travelling to the NZ regional comp next year, thought I would re-check its length...found someone with calipers etc. Now it measures at 127.107mm Maybe a 3rd measurement would yield yet another result?

Since my entry has already gone in by the point, it has been suggested I switch to Standard before the match starts (avoiding the open ridicule I would face in Open, later lol) *if* it is found to be non-compliant at the pre-match check. Having never shot in an international before, does the barrel check/chrono etc get done every day of the match? On other words, if it managed to 'pass' the first day could it get caught out on subsequent days (and I face the ignominy of Open - especially as I am pushing sh*t uphill to not finish last in Production as it stands now? )

Am wondering exactly how many stock M&P barrels are in fact illegal for Production

[Sarge]

I don't shoot IPSC but I just read the rules a bit. Where does it say anything about barrel length? Looks like the 9L is on the approved Production list. If it is a stock gun how does the barrel length come into play?

[bulm540]

IPSC has a 5 inch barrel limit. ( 127 mm). 127.107 mm is just a hair over the limit.

Edited November 29, 2012 by bulm540

[iShootguns]

If the gun is on approved list and its a factory gun with a factory barrel how can they fairly bump you to open because of slight variances in factory tolerances, along with slight variances in the calibration of the callers used? Seems awfully silly to me.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[bigfish]

If you are getting differant measurements from time to time and the caliper is correct you might not be getting it truely square on the barrel. If using a digital caliper I would say that you need to slightly move the caliper side to side until you find the lowest length measured. Even though the caliper looks square you will never see being .1 mm out of square when looking at it. If using a standard micrometer instead of the digital caliper you need to measure it a handful of times and the shortest measured length will be the one when the micrometer was truly square with the barrel. Another thing to consider is that digital calipers are not as accurate as the manual screw in type micrometers.

Edited November 29, 2012 by bigfish

[bigfish]

I would also verify the accuracy of the micrometer/digital caliper with a standard before I worried about .1 mm of differance.

[Sarge]

IPSC has a 5 inch barrel limit. ( 127 mm). 127.107 mm is just a hair over the limit.

I did find reference finally to the 5" rule. It was in the FAQ's However, I still think if the gun made the list and is unmodified otherwise it should be legal.

[Kevin Pledger]

Have been shooting a MP9L for the past 2 years, in IPSC Production (obviously). At this year's National titles the barrel was measured for the first time, and just scraped in (and I mean just) at 126.99mm.

Since I am travelling to the NZ regional comp next year, thought I would re-check its length...found someone with calipers etc. Now it measures at 127.107mm Maybe a 3rd measurement would yield yet another result?

Since my entry has already gone in by the point, it has been suggested I switch to Standard before the match starts (avoiding the open ridicule I would face in Open, later lol) *if* it is found to be non-compliant at the pre-match check. Having never shot in an international before, does the barrel check/chrono etc get done every day of the match? On other words, if it managed to 'pass' the first day could it get caught out on subsequent days (and I face the ignominy of Open - especially as I am pushing sh*t uphill to not finish last in Production as it stands now? )

Am wondering exactly how many stock M&P barrels are in fact illegal for Production

Why dont you ask this on the GV. Seen as you are in AU, and there is a barrel length restriction in AU by law, you might have a problem, but in New Zealand for AA2013, if your gun is on the Approved IPSC List you are good to go.

They ONLY way to measure the barrel length to be sure is to use a vernier caliper and measure from the breech face to the end of the barrel.

If you are still unsure, check with Greg Moon AU NROI, and take it to a gunsmith in Sydney and get them to measure it correctly.

Cheers ....

Edited November 29, 2012 by Kevin Pledger

[Kevin Pledger]

IPSC has a 5 inch barrel limit. ( 127 mm). 127.107 mm is just a hair over the limit.

I did find reference finally to the 5" rule. It was in the FAQ's However, I still think if the gun made the list and is unmodified otherwise it should be legal.

There are some countries which have a barrel length restriction, AU is one, they are not allowed to have barrels under 120mm on semi-automatic handguns and 100mm on Revolvers / Single shot handguns. So Glock / STI and other manufacturers have made longer barrels for these countries. If I remember the Glock is stamped 17A for Australia and DK for Denmark.

For STI they would fit a 125mm barrel in the factory before shipping.

[NOSAJ19]

Have been shooting a MP9L for the past 2 years, in IPSC Production (obviously). At this year's National titles the barrel was measured for the first time, and just scraped in (and I mean just) at 126.99mm.

Since I am travelling to the NZ regional comp next year, thought I would re-check its length...found someone with calipers etc. Now it measures at 127.107mm Maybe a 3rd measurement would yield yet another result?

Since my entry has already gone in by the point, it has been suggested I switch to Standard before the match starts (avoiding the open ridicule I would face in Open, later lol) *if* it is found to be non-compliant at the pre-match check. Having never shot in an international before, does the barrel check/chrono etc get done every day of the match? On other words, if it managed to 'pass' the first day could it get caught out on subsequent days (and I face the ignominy of Open - especially as I am pushing sh*t uphill to not finish last in Production as it stands now? )

Am wondering exactly how many stock M&P barrels are in fact illegal for Production

Why dont you ask this on the GV. Seen as you are in AU, and there is a barrel length restriction in AU by law, you might have a problem, but in New Zealand for AA2013, if your gun is on the Approved IPSC List you are good to go.

They ONLY way to measure the barrel length to be sure is to use a vernier caliper and measure from the breech face to the end of the barrel.

If you are still unsure, check with Greg Moon AU NROI, and take it to a gunsmith in Sydney and get them to measure it correctly.

Cheers ....

Mooney (Greg Moon) shoots an M&PL also. This is good advice.

[zhuk]

If you are getting differant measurements from time to time and the caliper is correct you might not be getting it truely square on the barrel. If using a digital caliper I would say that you need to slightly move the caliper side to side until you find the lowest length measured. Even though the caliper looks square you will never see being .1 mm out of square when looking at it. I would look up how to measure engine pistons and use the same method to measure the barrel length. If using a standard micrometer instead of the digital caliper you need to measure it a handful of times and the shortest measured length will be the one when the micrometer was truly square with the barrel. Another thing to consider is that digital calipers are not as accurate as the manual screw in type micrometers.

I would also verify the accuracy of the micrometer/digital caliper with a standard before I worried about .1 mm of differance.

Good points. However it is what the officials will be using in NZ which makes the difference, what slant they hold it etc. Won't have any control over what they use and how they go about it.

Why dont you ask this on the GV. Seen as you are in AU, and there is a barrel length restriction in AU by law, you might have a problem, but in New Zealand for AA2013, if your gun is on the Approved IPSC List you are good to go.

They ONLY way to measure the barrel length to be sure is to use a vernier caliper and measure from the breech face to the end of the barrel.

If you are still unsure, check with Greg Moon AU NROI, and take it to a gunsmith in Sydney and get them to measure it correctly.

Cheers ....

I would have thought being on the 'approved list' would also present no problem...and since there would have to be factory variations between firearms surely. Particularly in a gun which was only designed as a defensive pistol.

But being "warned off" at the Nationals set a whole lot of doubts in train.

I am going to try and get the importers who employ an armourer to have a look at it. Thanks to you & NOSAJ19 for also suggesting contacting Greg Moon. Really would rather avoid having to nominate to go into Standard from the outset when I get over there.

Thanks for your help guys.

Edited November 29, 2012 by zhuk

[Kevin Pledger]

If you are getting differant measurements from time to time and the caliper is correct you might not be getting it truely square on the barrel. If using a digital caliper I would say that you need to slightly move the caliper side to side until you find the lowest length measured. Even though the caliper looks square you will never see being .1 mm out of square when looking at it. I would look up how to measure engine pistons and use the same method to measure the barrel length. If using a standard micrometer instead of the digital caliper you need to measure it a handful of times and the shortest measured length will be the one when the micrometer was truly square with the barrel. Another thing to consider is that digital calipers are not as accurate as the manual screw in type micrometers.

I would also verify the accuracy of the micrometer/digital caliper with a standard before I worried about .1 mm of differance.

Good points. However it is what the officials will be using in NZ which makes the difference, what slant they hold it etc. Won't have any control over what they use and how they go about it.

Why dont you ask this on the GV. Seen as you are in AU, and there is a barrel length restriction in AU by law, you might have a problem, but in New Zealand for AA2013, if your gun is on the Approved IPSC List you are good to go.

They ONLY way to measure the barrel length to be sure is to use a vernier caliper and measure from the breech face to the end of the barrel.

If you are still unsure, check with Greg Moon AU NROI, and take it to a gunsmith in Sydney and get them to measure it correctly.

Cheers ....

I would have thought being on the 'approved list' would also present no problem...and since there would have to be factory variations between firearms surely. Particularly in a gun which was only designed as a defensive pistol.

But being "warned off" at the Nationals set a whole lot of doubts in train.

I am going to try and get the importers who employ an armourer to have a look at it. Thanks to you & NOSAJ19 for also suggesting contacting Greg Moon. Really would rather avoid having to nominate to go into Standard from the outset when I get over there.

Thanks for your help guys.

I am not sure WHO warned you off, but explain the procedure on how they tested the barrel and with what type of measuring equipment.

So the most logical thing to do is ASK, the most definitive authority would be Greg Moon for all Rules. I am very sure you are not going to get pinged, its a factory supplied firearm, as long as you havent done any modifications, i.e. fitted the barrel yourself or had the importer fit the barrel in AU, their should be no problems.

If this was me, I would just still nominate for PD, I very much doubt you will have to nominate for SD.

[Kevin Pledger]

Good points. However it is what the officials will be using in NZ which makes the difference, what slant they hold it etc. Won't have any control over what they use and how they go about it.

Learn your rules, know what can be challenged and what cant. If you are not happy on how they measure the barrel, THAT'S if they do, you can always ask for a second opinion.

At the 2 World Shoots, 6 Level IV and to many to remember Level III matches, I have officiated at I have never once seen as barrel measured for length before in PD. Its always if its on the list, and you are compliant with Appendix D4.

Or another suggestion is join the Australian IPSC Forum and ask directly there, you will soon get a reply.

[zhuk]

If you are getting differant measurements from time to time and the caliper is correct you might not be getting it truely square on the barrel. If using a digital caliper I would say that you need to slightly move the caliper side to side until you find the lowest length measured. Even though the caliper looks square you will never see being .1 mm out of square when looking at it. I would look up how to measure engine pistons and use the same method to measure the barrel length. If using a standard micrometer instead of the digital caliper you need to measure it a handful of times and the shortest measured length will be the one when the micrometer was truly square with the barrel. Another thing to consider is that digital calipers are not as accurate as the manual screw in type micrometers.

I would also verify the accuracy of the micrometer/digital caliper with a standard before I worried about .1 mm of differance.

Good points. However it is what the officials will be using in NZ which makes the difference, what slant they hold it etc. Won't have any control over what they use and how they go about it.

Why dont you ask this on the GV. Seen as you are in AU, and there is a barrel length restriction in AU by law, you might have a problem, but in New Zealand for AA2013, if your gun is on the Approved IPSC List you are good to go.

They ONLY way to measure the barrel length to be sure is to use a vernier caliper and measure from the breech face to the end of the barrel.

If you are still unsure, check with Greg Moon AU NROI, and take it to a gunsmith in Sydney and get them to measure it correctly.

Cheers ....

I would have thought being on the 'approved list' would also present no problem...and since there would have to be factory variations between firearms surely. Particularly in a gun which was only designed as a defensive pistol.

But being "warned off" at the Nationals set a whole lot of doubts in train.

I am going to try and get the importers who employ an armourer to have a look at it. Thanks to you & NOSAJ19 for also suggesting contacting Greg Moon. Really would rather avoid having to nominate to go into Standard from the outset when I get over there.

Thanks for your help guys.

I am not sure WHO warned you off, but explain the procedure on how they tested the barrel and with what type of measuring equipment.

So the most logical thing to do is ASK, the most definitive authority would be Greg Moon for all Rules. I am very sure you are not going to get pinged, its a factory supplied firearm, as long as you havent done any modifications, i.e. fitted the barrel yourself or had the importer fit the barrel in AU, their should be no problems.

If this was me, I would just still nominate for PD, I very much doubt you will have to nominate for SD.

There was one scrutineer at the National comp who was checking barrel lengths. He used a digital vernier caliper, stood the pistol on its end with the barrel vertical, zeroed the caliper and inserted it to the hilt. After the reading was verified twice (zeroing each time) he called over another official to verify it with him. This is where I was "warned" about the "near miss", so to speak. I explained that it was OEM factory stock that I had done no modifications to whatsoever and he said "That's not our problem..."

Which of course it isn't.

The only thing I have done to the gun at all is apply some griptape and black out the rear sight dots with a marker.

Have emailed Greg Moon as suggested. I agree with you, I will still attempt to be accepted into Production when I am in NZ, and leave the possibility that I will be forced into SD up to fate. Nominations/match entry etc closed and was formalised quite some time ago.

[junkie]

Got a dremel? Take a bit off the end. Sure can't hurt the accuracy

[zhuk]

Got a dremel? Take a bit off the end. Sure can't hurt the accuracy

Not legal. If you file the barrel then you are not in Production. If anyone else ie a gunsmith etc machines or files the barrel, then you are not in Production. It must be an unmodified factory barrel

[Sarge]

IPSC has a 5 inch barrel limit. ( 127 mm). 127.107 mm is just a hair over the limit.

I did find reference finally to the 5" rule. It was in the FAQ's However, I still think if the gun made the list and is unmodified otherwise it should be legal.

There are some countries which have a barrel length restriction, AU is one, they are not allowed to have barrels under 120mm on semi-automatic handguns and 100mm on Revolvers / Single shot handguns. So Glock / STI and other manufacturers have made longer barrels for these countries. If I remember the Glock is stamped 17A for Australia and DK for Denmark.

For STI they would fit a 125mm barrel in the factory before shipping.

Right. But I thought we were talking ipsc rules not national laws.

[zhuk]

IPSC has a 5 inch barrel limit. ( 127 mm). 127.107 mm is just a hair over the limit.

I did find reference finally to the 5" rule. It was in the FAQ's However, I still think if the gun made the list and is unmodified otherwise it should be legal.

There are some countries which have a barrel length restriction, AU is one, they are not allowed to have barrels under 120mm on semi-automatic handguns and 100mm on Revolvers / Single shot handguns. So Glock / STI and other manufacturers have made longer barrels for these countries. If I remember the Glock is stamped 17A for Australia and DK for Denmark.

For STI they would fit a 125mm barrel in the factory before shipping.

Right. But I thought we were talking ipsc rules not national laws.

And the National laws for Aust are 120mm min barrel, which has no bearing on IPSC rules in any case.

[zhuk]

And the National laws for Aust are 120mm min barrel, which has no bearing on IPSC rules in any case.

This was a bit of a prescient statement, as it turns out. I've had confirmation from a couple of sources that it is the Aust barrel-length regs which required measurements at the National competition (even though they were apparently measuring for 127 not 120mm). NZ has no such regs (being a halfway-normal country gunlaw-wise, unlike our own La-La Land) so no Production guns should be measured over there in any case

Not only that, but it appears it was a bit of uh, over-zealousness (to be generous) on the part of those officials who jumped down my neck. The S&W Aust importer says he has never had any trouble, and providing the barrel measures 127mm not 128 (which isn't going to happen) there should be no problems whatsoever.

My Police rego papers state a barrel length of 127mm and that is that. I do not intend to concern myself about it further, and with luck I won't have to

Appreciate the help and advice guys.

Edited November 30, 2012 by zhuk

[Mumbles]

Mmmmmm, so a Sydney shooter going to NZ for AA13 shooting Production with an M and P with a potentially over length barrel.............

Now where did I leave my calipers.........

Regards,

Mumbles